Ask the Socialist candidate for the European Parliament election

I’m confused about the meaning of the term “post-scarcity,” as by nature everything in the world is finite and therefore scarce. But I’m even more puzzled by how labor would work. You mentioned hobbies, psychonaut, but hobbies and work are two different things. For one thing, there are many hobbies that are unproductive in terms of fulfilling any of the needs of society. Even more to the point, there is a lot of necessary work out there that doesn’t come close to anything anyone does just for the heck of it, because they enjoy it. Take coal mining, for example. Who is going to volunteer to do a job like that? There are plenty of jobs that are hard to fill now, even with good pay, because they are dangerous or unpleasant. How will those jobs get done? You can even take my job, which isn’t dangerous and isn’t all that unpleasant. It’s not bad, but it’s one of those jobs that’s usually pretty boring, and when it’s not boring, it’s stressful. I don’t hate it, but I don’t get my jollies out of it, either. It’s one of those cog jobs…it’s one of the least glamourous parts of an unglamourous industry. But it’s a job that has to be done, or nothing else in the industry could get done. A lot of jobs are like that…no one REALLY wants to do them, they just find that they CAN do them, and they get paid decently to do it, so that’s what they do. Are people really going to be motivated towards jobs like mine if they are able to do something more interesting? Acid Lamp’s example is a really good one…there are a lot of artists out there who would love to create all day. Some have real talent, some might not. Some might be successful as far as public opinion goes, some might not. But what if all of them decide that’s what they’re going to do? Are they all contributing the necessary amount to society? Or take me again…the closest thing I have to a hobby is reading. I’d love to have the freedom to read all day. But I don’t really have the skills or desire to turn that into a career editing or researching. So what good is that hobby to anyone?

So, could you explain a little more how you envision the labor part of you movement would actually operate? Do you imagine that at some point, either incentives or coercion will be necessary to fill jobs that no one wants? Or do you have another solution that I’m not thinking of?

Of the more successful parties (and I’ll include Greens, UKIP and the BNP), whose supporters do you think you have a remotely realistic chance of converting?

I believe his point is that as long as there’s no socialist at the helm, scarcity will remain artificially enforced. Dunno about the US, but he’s certainly got a point re. Europe, where for example farmers do get state and/or EU subsidies for not growing too much food, dump milk/corn/meat so as to not drive the market price down or because it’s simply more profitable to dump the goods than stock them up until the price is right etc…

Not saying he’s right, mind you - that is to say, I’m not convinced a socialist government would be any better, as of right now. But then, this is another proto-anarchist speaking. One who also realizes his anarchist utopia wouldn’t work in his own country right now, since his (damn, now I’m stuck using the third person. Halp ! I’ve syntactically fallen and I can’t get up !) strong sense of personnal responsibilities obviously isn’t shared by everyone, or even the majority.
But then, that’s always the problem with letting the People rule : it only works right with the right kind of People, doesn’t it ? :stuck_out_tongue:

On the other hand, even if I don’t share all of his opinions, I do have much respect for a guy who’s not willing to compromise his ideal just because “it’ll never work” or “it’s too irrealistic, man, it’s just human nature to X” and refuses to let the bastards grind him down. But then, quixotic is my middle name.

‘Finite’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘in short supply’ or ‘scarce’. There’s a finite amount of land on Earth but, according to UN calculations, the arable part is already producing 4 pounds of food per capita per day - obviously far more than an individual’s daily dietary requirements. (I’ll see if I can find the cite again; I linked to it in a thread years ago.) There’s also the use of renewable vs. non-renewable resources to consider; to look at your coal mining example, a socialist society might (and I would argue ought to) devote time and effort to building energy networks based on solar and wind power. By harnessing the world’s energy demands to such renewable resources, the need for coal mining obviously decreases and fewer people are needed to do it. And, of course, improvements in efficiency in solar and wind-based power generation means fewer people and fewer man-hours are needed for those programs. Under capitalism that would mean increased unemployment but under socialism it would mean more free time to pursue hobbies and interests outside of work.

Incentives definitely, especially if the job is more hazardous (or more necessary) than usual. Coercion, definitely not. People who are active in making a socialist revolution understand the effort that’s going to be needed for actually building socialism, and they’re going to take that willingness and drive with them.

Kobal2, US agriculture operates much the same way.

Our supporters’ backgrounds are across the political spectrum (and even off it). We have members that were former anarchists, leftists, rightists, and centrists. There’s even one who was, back in the 30s and 40s, in the British Union of Fascists. As I mentioned in my first post, despite its name, the SPGB isn’t really a party of the Left, and therefore we aren’t really out to specifically poach people with Leftist sympathies. That said, a lot of people who are interested in Leftist politics do end up coming across us because of our name, and end up sympathizing or even joining. But a lot of them don’t because they’re more interested in taking “direct action” to work on short-term, reform-oriented goals. We think such people are well-intentioned but misguided; no amount of marching, demonstrating, lobbying, and petitioning is going to solve all the problems of capitalism, if only because there are too many to tackle one at a time.

We do have just as much to offer adherents of right-wing parties, even far-right ones such as the BNP and NF. Many people sympathize with those ideologies because they believe it will bring them the things they need as workers, such as job security. We need to reach out to these people as well to show them that security and prosperity need not involve expelling your neighbours simply because they were born on the other side of some imaginary line.

Interestingly, a lot of people who are not affiliated with any specific political party or ideology find us on their own; this was actually the case with me. I independently came to many of the same conclusions as the Socialist Party years before I learned about the existence of any like-minded people; it wasn’t until I was perusing election manifestos of the various parties that I found the SPGB. Being rather young at the time, I held off on joining or even actively supporting them for several years until I was sure of my beliefs.

Again, I’m grateful that this thread has generated so much interest, and I apologize for not having the time to respond to all the points that are being raised in a timely manner. I’m doing my best to get to as many as I can in the time I have available. Please don’t think I’m ignoring your questions; some of them require a lot more thought to answer than others, so sometimes I will opt to first address those to which I can give a quick reply.

I don’t want to speak for **psychonaut **or his party, but I think the idea is that since everyone realizes these jobs need to be done for the continuation of society, it is therefore seen as a Good Thing to pony up and do them, if only for a time. “A good deed is it’s own reward”, sort of. You do them for your own satisfaction, because you realize someone’s gotta do it, and you’re doing your part for the Greater Good. And if no one gets off his/her butt to do them, well then society either learns to do without them, or threatens to crumble and the urgency does get people to do them.

It’s something you see in every club or community. Nobody wants to do the paperwork, or take the minutes, or moderate, or do the accounting. Nobody *wants *to organize things, because 1) it’s a fucking hassle and 2) no matter what you do or how you do it, the people who didn’t do it will always complain it’s not done right. No exceptions.
But there’s also always a good Samaritan who’ll do his/her part, roll his/her eyes and get with the bookkeeping. At least for a time, or until the majority decides that the work not only isn’t done right, but is actually done wrong.

Same goes for coal mining. It’s unpleasant and dangerous for the most part, but it’s not unrealistic to think coal miners (at least some of them, in any case) take pride in their work, and knowing it keeps the light on in every house in the country. Socialists seem (to me) to think it’s possible to achieve a society where everyone would want to go down the coal pit and glow with pride for doing so. Dunno if that’s workable on a grand scale, and to tell the truth I don’t think it is. At least not until everyone is done with the “me & mine first” mentality. And I’m not sure how one’d get around to actually get people to let go of it - they’ve gotta do it on their own, if you ask me. And that requires… I dunno. Education ? The experience of oppression ? A hive mind ? Empathy ? Low self-worth ? Strong morals & cast-iron ethics ? Political indoctrination ? I have absolutely no idea.

But you know, if I didn’t have to worry about paying the bills, feeding and clothing myself etc…, and society took care of every single of my needs, I’d probably be willing to go down the mineshaft. Lord knows I did some shit-ass, soul crushing, boring jobs for less than that.
Unless it’s in the morning, cause that’s fucking fascist, man.

What kinds of incentives? Are they the ones who will get the Lamborghinis mentioned earlier? And if so, what’s the difference in spirit between that and capitalism? It’s the same thing, except without cash.

Well for all the good that it’ll do you could have saved on the postage.

Anyways: can you claim expenses…oh wait;)

What did have in mind as the “one notable but all-too-brief exception”? I have a few in mind, but none of them even came close to working.

I have always been intrigued by the idea of a post-human world*. Care to expand upon what you think this post-human society might be like?

*As long as it’s not just “everyone is dead and cockroaches rule the planet”, because that’s boring.

That’s what the people who build socialist society have to decide. And it’s not exactly like capitalism because the resources aren’t the property of an individual or corporate entity, used only if a profit can be made off them; they’re the collective property of society and those who use them are charged with deciding collectively how best to use them for the goals society has set to meet its needs.

Regallag - the Soviet Union from 1917 to sometime in the late 1920s and the victory of Stalinism, which wasn’t socialism, communism, or even a logical continuation of Leninism but a crime against the first two and a diametrically opposed break with the third.

I am always surprised that socialists and Utopians don’t learn anything from this example. Everything was perfect* - and was followed by Stalinism and mass murder by starvation. If socialism is so great, why doesn’t it ever work? If it will work everywhere, why doesn’t it work anywhere?

But it’s always “pie in the sky, by and by”.

Somehow or other, if we remove all the incentives to improve productivity, then immediately everything becomes more productive. And then if all the good little boys and girls who believe in fairies will clap their hands, then we get a magic world where solar and wind power networks magically appear, property crimes magically disappears, and we enter the Promised Land.

Regards,
Shodan

*Oh yes - the paradise that was the Soviet Union from 1917 - 1925.

Cite.

And the only time they were starving to death was when they adopted capitalist practices. Cite.

I’ve tried finding more sources than your Wikipedia link on the Putilov strike of 1919 but the only mentions I’ve found so far are word-for-word quotes of the Wikipedia article. Not exactly the strongest support for the event actually happening.

As for the strikes in other cities mentioned in that same paragraph, a quick look at this map of the Russian Civil War (which the Red Terror article pointedly doesn’t mention!) shows that all but one of the cities mentioned were either on or behind the front lines in White territory during 1919 - a strong indicator that the atrocities shouldn’t be attributed to the Bolsheviks without a lot more serious research first. The only exception to that list is Tver, which was nowhere near the front lines at all during the war. Again, more information than a passing mention in Wikipedia is needed for serious discussion here.

As for the New Economic Policy, it was indeed an attempt to rebuild the Russian economy - after the almost complete devastation of the Russian Civil War, which this article also completely ignores.

Summation: you’re gonna need a lot more than what you gave to prove your point.

It’s often said that socialism would work so long as everyone would agree to work for the common good. So long as we’re all communitarians and have a shared interest in the betterment of society, everything will be fine.

The typical arguments against socialism are based on the fact that human nature isn’t like that, and that it’s utopian to think you can get everyone to go along.

But here’s the thing - even if everyone did care, and everyone honestly wanted the collective to be a wondrous shared egalitarian experience, it STILL wouldn’t work. It wouldn’t work because this brand of socialism lacks the mechanisms that are required to coordinate disparate populations and large groups of people, to ensure that resources will be available when needed, and to manage the complexity of billions of people all trying to work together.

In a capitalist system, this is done through prices. Prices are information. If a storm blows down a factory in Bangalore, the price of whatever it makes goes up. This is a signal to people to stop using as much of the product, and to start making more of the product elsewhere. The price system is the communications bus that our large decentralized supercomputer of humanity needs so that all producers and consumers can receive the information necessary to determine how to efficiently order their consumption and production.

And the thing is, even if you tried to replace this with an actual supercomputer and got everyone to feed their desires and abilities into it, you STILL couldn’t make it work, because the information doesn’t exist at all until people are forced to make choices. You can’t possibly know whether or not you should buy a new hammer until you understand the cost of a hammer relative to the cost of all the other things you need. You can’t rationally decide whether or not you should make hammers until you are forced to choose between hammer production or some other prodution by evaluating the relative prices of the components of production compared to the price you can receive selling the hammer.

This is why socialist systems ALWAYS break down. The Soviet Union didn’t become despotic because there was something uniquely evil about Russians - it became despotic because in the absence of prices, the only thing left is physical coercion and fear. The Soviets actually tried to manage production to the best of their ability - they had a massive bureaucracy staffed with economists and accountants - huge computer models. Millions of entries in bookkeeping systems, attempting to track the flow of goods and services and the demand for them. They honestly did their best. And it was an utter failure.

Socialists of this type seem to think that scarcity only exists because capitalism creates it. This is utterly wrong. Capitalism doesn’t create scarcity - it manages it. There will always be scarcity. We can’t hope to make all the goods and services we really desire. It’s impossible. Handwaving away the problem of scarce resources by pointing at some nebulous flaw in capitalism is the worst kind of shoddy thinking. A few hours of hard thought about the nature of production, the fact that we usually have close to full employment, and that the majority of people are gainfully employed should tell you that scarcity is the result of a little more than friction in the cogs of capitalism.

I have a feeling that socialists of this stripe have no understanding of the real complexity of a modern economy. They think of goods and services in only the most simplistic terms. They see people making products without considering the products needed to make the products needed to make the products. Sure, you might get people to make nice pottery voluntarily. But who’s going to mine the copper needed to make the wire needed to make the winding on the motor in the pottery wheel? Who’s going to know how much copper to mine? In a world of finite copper, who’s going to know whether it’s best put to use in pottery wheels or to make copper-lined pans? Who decides? What happens when someone decides they want to use a massive amount of copper to build their giant copper sculpture, creating a shortage of copper for the magnets of MRI machines?

I’ve been asking questions like thisof various socialists/communists/anarchists for decades. I’ve NEVER been given a good answer. I asked a bunch of questions like this of our current new socialist, and he ignored all of them.

My conclusion is that this brand of socialism is either a religion, in which such questions need not/dare not be asked, or it’s a brand of mass delusion like creationism or flat-earthism. Some people just want to believe so badly in this pastoral, communal vision of mankind that they will devote their lives to it without ever asking the hard questions about how it could possibly work.

I completely disagree with everything you stand for, but I’ll vote for you anyway as you have no chance whatsoever of getting in - why not :slight_smile:

I’m prepared to not defend to the death the OP’s right to say it, myself.

So every single individual in the world gets a say in how best to use the 200 Lamborghinis produced each year?

How can that possibly work? Does everybody on Earth get a vote on who gets each individual Lamborghini? Don’t you see a few practical difficulties of global referenda on every single object made? And even if the practical difficulties can be overcome, do you really believe that would work? How can someone in China make a valid decision on whether a Lamborghini is better used by a janitor in Australia or a brain surgeon in Calcutta? And if they can’t make that decision then how can they collectively decide how best to use them for the goals society has set?

I can’t agree more with Sam Stone on this point. Even if we coudl change human nature, Socialism can’t work simply because it lacks any mechanism for deciding how best to use resources. The proponents always handwave about " the workers deciding collectively how best to use them for the goals society has set". But they can never explain how the workers make such decisions in the complete absence of any value marker.

Here’s Vladimir Brovkin’s “Dear Comrades: Menshevik Reports on the Bolshevik Revolution and the Civil War”

Also, check out his “Workers Unrest and the Bolshevik Response in 1919

Agree. If there were only one government, then they would have sole control. No one, no country, no other government could keep them in check. Further, if a person became disenchanted with that government, there would be no where else to go, because it would still be the same government.

Power. Control. A bigger piece of the pie. Ambition. Greed. Selfishness. Xenophobia. Racism.

There are as many reasons as there are people.