# Ask the straight, white, married, employed guy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428 "2001-04-18T14:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wartime\_Consigliori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9d8465/32.png) [@Wartime\_Consigliori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wartime_Consigliori)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/21 "2001-04-19T16:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*“If you SWME guys really do rule the world, how come you can’t stop wearing neckties?” > \*\* Because, gentle reader, the clothes make the man. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/22 "2001-04-19T17:14:53Z")
> [@](#): > > We don’t advocate tearing down the corporate system to live on communes out in Montana. That **is** done only by straight white guys. > [@](#): > > We haven’t been oppressed lately. But I’m willing to bet you’ve oppressed others > [@](#): > > We enjoy shows like ‘Sex in the City’ and ‘Friends’ instead of their gay counterparts ‘Queer as Folk’ or ‘Will and Grace’. (Fortunately, there is no gay counterpart to ‘The Sopranos’, except maybe ‘Oz’). If you think that gay people don’t watch “Sex in the City” and “Friends,” I envy your innocence. And why do you say, "Fortunately, there is no gay counterpart to ‘The Sopranos’?"Sounds like somebody’s prejudices are coming out. > [@](#): > > We enjoy the company of other Straight White People With > Jobs. What do you have against Straight Black People With Jobs or Gay White People With Jobs or Straight White Ex-Dotcommers Looking For A Job? > [@](#): > > We enjoy driving nice cars instead of rusted out shitboxes > when we can afford to. That’s true for everyone. The key phrase is _when we can afford to_. > [@](#): > > We choose to live in the nicest house we can afford. Ditto > [@](#): > > We believe the best way to get a head is through education and hard work, not bitching and moaning. That’s true of most people. My boss (a straight, black woman) believes that, my project manager buddy ( straight, white, Jewish) believes it, so do I (gay, white male ). It seems to me that you live in a parochial, closed environment where you’ve never heard anyone tell anti-gay or anti-black jokes, where senior management never promotes men over more qualified women, every child, regardless of color, gets a good education and lives in a safe, loving home. How lucky you are. I guess Rosa Parks might as well have moved to the back of the bus and Matthew Shephard’s death was just an accident. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/23 "2001-04-19T17:34:59Z")
As a SWME guy, I have many problems with some statements made by mssmith: > [@](#): > > -We don’t advocate tearing down the corporate system to live on communes out in Montanna. I know little about Montana, but it may be a nice place to live… > [@](#): > > -We haven’t been oppressed lately. I thought you said you were married? > [@](#): > > -We enjoy shows like ‘Sex in the City’ and ‘Friends’ instead of their gay counterparts ‘Queer as Folk’ or ‘Will and Grace’. … I’ve never seen ‘Sex in the City’ (the show), ‘Friends’ is so-so at best, but I love ‘Will and Grace’ - am I officially out of SWME? > [@](#): > > -We enjoy the company of other Straight White People With Jobs. Only? But who wouldn’t like to hang out with Michael Jordan even though he’s not working much lately… > [@](#): > > -We believe the best way to get a **head** is through education and hard work, not bitching and moaning. Really? If you go to school and work you automatically get head? My wife better not hear about this since I just went back to school and I work… goboy, > [@](#): > > But I’m willing to bet you’ve oppressed others Where did this come from? I don’t think you’re being t&c here, and since smith was kiddin’ around, why the sudden attack? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/24 "2001-04-19T17:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > quote: > But I’m willing to bet you’ve oppressed others > > Where did this come from? I don’t think you’re being t&c here, and since smith was kiddin’around, why the sudden attack? That’s not an attack, that’s just being snide. Trust me, if I were to attack, msmith would know it. The tone of his post semed to suggest that a) only Straight White Guys With Jobs work hard for a good life and b)that trying to redress racism and discrimination are just “bitching and moaning.” I don’t think he has any idea of the income divide in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/25 "2001-04-19T20:57:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Stuffinb, why are you calling this the “opposing” thread? It started earlier than yours, which would therefore be the opposing one by definition, wouldn’t it? Actually it was a bad choice of words. I should have said it’s opposite. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/26 "2001-04-19T21:03:12Z")
**Dear Straight, White, Married, Employed Guy:** How did you manage to find a woman who was interested enough in you to marry you? I have a seriously difficult time just finding a date, now that I’m out of grad school. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/27 "2001-04-19T21:48:37Z")
OK, I’ll take a stab at the “what’s up with marriage?” questions. I see marriage not only as a commitment between the two people, but also a commitment to the community and from the community. If there were only the two of you involved, any sort of ad hoc arrangements would be fine. If you don’t have a community–family, friends, neighbors–or if you don’t care about your community, then it really is unimportant. Marriage is an explanation of our relationship to the rest of the world. And it is also a call for the community to recognize and support our relationship. At our wedding we used a Quaker tradition where we had a large wedding certificate and asked all the wedding guests to sign it. I also think marriage can be a way of clarifying your relationship with each other. If you are living with someone and sharing finances, you ARE commited to each other whether you like it or not. Marriage provides legal protection for each partner in the event of dissolution of the relationship. And of course, the primary reason to be married is if you plan on having kids. I just can’t understand why you would live with someone and have kids with them but not marry them. I mean, that’s what marriage IS. If you don’t want to have kids, if you’re not interested in family life, then there’s no big reason to be married, even if you really really love someone else. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/28 "2001-04-19T23:13:46Z")
It is precisely the fact that marriage **is** a legal state of affairs, with all sorts of consequences (including, potentially, a **much** messier break-up if things don’t work out), that turns some couples off to the idea of marriage. And as far as kids go, the rights of so-called “illegitimate” children and their parents are identical to those of children born to married parents, except perhaps with regard to their rights to their father’s estate when he dies. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/29 "2001-04-20T14:45:21Z")
I agree with **Lemur866** , and I’ll add that having the community recognize your commitment to each other strengthens it. If it were as casual emotionally as saying “Hey, babe, guess we’re a couple, huh?” “Yeah, cool”, then it would be almost as casual an act to break it. Having the multitudes in the community provide the expectation that you’ll stay committed helps keep the relationship together. It does seem to me that it’s way too easy, both legally and culturally, to get married, and way too hard to end a marriage. The commitment shouldn’t be considered without much better preparation and foresight than many couples give it; there is too little support for couples having trouble; and there are too many obstacles in the way to cleaning up the mess and moving on if it gets impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/30 "2001-04-20T20:04:19Z")
Elvis: Yes, part of marriage is the community support for that marriage. The community strengthens the marriage and also holds the couple responsible for making things work. Tracer: I disagree that marriage makes things “more complicated” if there is a breakup. By specifying the legal status of property it simplifies breakups. For instance, I have a friend who just broke up with his live-in boyfriend of 8 years. They were essentially married, but now that they have broken up we find that the house and property are in one person’s name, despite all the work they did together. If they had been married then my friend could have an easily enforced claim on the house…but he is essentially left with nothing unless he wants to file a lawsuit. Marriage simplifies breakups if there are children and property involved. ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/31 "2001-04-20T21:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*And of course, the primary reason to be married is if you plan on having kids. I just can’t understand why you would live with someone and have kids with them but not marry them. I mean, that’s what marriage IS. If you don’t want to have kids, if you’re not interested in family life, then there’s no big reason to be married, even if you really really love someone else. \*\* Gotta disagree with you there, bub. I’m a SWMEG, and my wife and I have no intention of ever having kids. Did that affect our decision to get married, or does it reduce the validity of our marriage? **Not one friggin’ bit.** We figured if this was going to be a permanent relationship, we ought to demonstrate to the community and to ourselves the commitment we had to each other. Having children or not had nothing to do with it. We are no less a family than you are, no matter how many offspring you have. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/32 "2001-04-21T01:44:13Z")
You misunderstood. I have no problem with childless people getting married, I don’t have any kids myself. What I can’t understand are the people who live together, share finances and have kids together, and yet feel getting married is too much of a commitment. What’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![ModernRonin2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@ModernRonin2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernRonin2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/33 "2001-04-21T05:17:40Z")
(This is half-joking, half serious. I welcome all input.) Dear Straight, White, Male, Employed guy: As a fellow SWMEG, I find my life rather boring in comparison to the lives of other “Ask the \_\_\_\_” people. For instance, I’ve never had kinky sex with a person I don’t know very well. And I can’t remember the last time I was in bed with more than one other person. Also, my fashion sense is abysmal. (I’m told, anyway - what’s so wrong with flannels and jeans?) I don’t know any hip movies or cool clubs to go to. The last movie I saw was “Miss Congeniality”, and let me tell you it wasn’t worth $7. The only place I’ve been drinking lately is the corner bar. To tell you the truth, the only reason I’m complaining about all this is because I’m jealous. Please help me, fellow SWMEG! How can I make my life as exciting and interesting as the lives of the other “Ask the \_\_\_\_\_” people I keep reading about? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/34 "2001-04-21T15:41:47Z")
**ModernRonin2** , when you find out, let me know too, willya? Seriously, I’m not sure the people who post all the stuff you’ve referred to are necessarily happy about it. The kind of life we both have - secure, committed, “normal” - may be something they’d prefer, given the choice. Oh, and **tracer** , sorry for not getting back to you earlier about “finding a woman” - I didn’t meet my wife until after college, either, and it came as a complete surprise to both of us. We met at random, not expecting or hoping for anything, and just clicked. Don’t worry too much about it, or you might actually turn off someone you might share a lot with. It’ll happen when you’re not expecting it, trust me. ---
**Author:** ![heyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@heyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heyjoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/35 "2001-04-21T16:03:21Z")
You want to know why it sucks being a SWME? because when your kids are getting ready for college, you’re screwed. Sure, junior may have a 4.3 GPA, more activities than he can fit onto a college application, be a varsity athlete and be an award winning writer/artist, but it doesn’t matter for scholarships! Unless he’s a lesbian eskimo, an albino lefty, hell, ANYTHING other than an SWME to be, you’re paying for a LOT more of that college bill. sorry, i’m just really frustrated…3 of the 5 schools i’m looking at give almost nothign but need based scholarships…my SWME elder has enough money to NOT qualify for need based, but not enough to foot the bill for the schools i want. chris (yes, i am aware this will seem very insensitive. I having nothing agaist those who qualify for need based scholarships. Several of my friends will. I’ve just worked my ass off for 5 years so i can get into any college i want, and now i’m findign out, i can’t pay for them. ) ---
**Author:** ![One\_Cell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e95f7d/32.png) [@One\_Cell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_Cell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/36 "2001-04-21T17:58:10Z")
**Elvis:** This is not a direct attack, nor a character-assassination attempt. But your OP did ask for any questions regarding the SWME group. So, here is one: While among your own clan you may be having a ball, it seems your “interesting interactions” are generally based on unconscious passion for possessions, control, power and winning. From the outside, you are really a boring bunch. Why is your taste and outlook on life so mundane, monotonous and non-interesting to the the non-SWME people. I hope you do not believe that we are envious of your lifestyle, SUVs, big houses, boring vacation pictures/videos or empty and intellectually non-interesting conversations carried by most of you. Please list the top 5 attributes of SWME individuals that would make them attractive enough to be invited to a lively and fun non-SWME party. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/37 "2001-04-21T21:07:47Z")
ElvisL1ves wrote: > [@](#): > > I didn’t meet my wife until after college, either, and it came as a complete surprise to both of us. We met at random, not expecting or hoping for anything, and just clicked. What kind of place did this at-random meeting take place in? It just seems darn hard for me to find venues of any kind where there are both (A) women present, and (B) a relaxed enough social atmosphere that you can talk to 'em. (The workplace is _definitely_ out.) > [@](#): > > Don’t worry too much about it, or you might actually turn off someone you might share a lot with. It’ll happen when you’re not expecting it, trust me. Okay, but I don’t have forever to wait. I ain’t no Spring chicken any more, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![One\_Cell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e95f7d/32.png) [@One\_Cell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_Cell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/38 "2001-04-21T21:42:51Z")
**tracer** : If you want to find a wife, there are hundreds of outfits that cater to SMEs looking to add a W to their title. Try [findlove@intouchdating.com](mailto:findlove@intouchdating.com) I believe neither this forum nor the OP were intended to help you find a wife. So, what are your 5 attributes? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/39 "2001-04-22T02:02:10Z")
**OneCell**? What are YOUR attributes that make you so special and fascinating to others? And how is it that you’re having so much more fun with your own chosen lifestyle that you’re spending Saturday night cruising Internet message boards? Where’s that “lively and fun non-SWME party” you mentioned? You’re way off base with the materialism charge, btw. That’s one of the ugly stereotypes I complained of in the OP. Family, friends, and career accomplishments mean pretty much everything, not the SUV I don’t have or even want. **tracer** , nothing special, we met at a party hosted by mutual friends, started talking, went out on another night, been together since. But we didn’t go the to party expecting anything but to have fun with friends. The message is, don’t try too hard or you just give off emanations of patheticness. Anyone in the sex and orientation you’re looking for is going to be looking for a friend to hang out with first, with perhaps the possibility of that evolving into a romance later, NOT first for a sexual partner who might become a friend later on, get it? ---
**Author:** ![dixiechiq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@dixiechiq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dixiechiq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2001, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428/40 "2001-04-22T03:07:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kamandi \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > > \*\*And of course, the primary reason to be married is if you plan on having kids. I just can’t understand why you would live with someone and have kids with them but not marry them. I mean, that’s what marriage IS. If you don’t want to have kids, if you’re not interested in family life, then there’s no big reason to be married, even if you really really love someone else. \*\* > > Gotta disagree with you there, bub. I’m a SWMEG, and my wife and I have no intention of ever having kids. Did that affect our decision to get married, or does it reduce the validity of our marriage? **Not one friggin’ bit.** We figured if this was going to be a permanent relationship, we ought to demonstrate to the community and to ourselves the commitment we had to each other. Having children or not had nothing to do with it. We are no less a family than you are, no matter how many offspring you have. \*\* well, my wife and i got married, not because we planned to have kids [we don’t], not to demonstrate to a community that we had commitment [i knew within a few days of meeting her that i wanted to be with her forever. a piece of paper was not going to change that.], but because the united states government told us we had to if we were going to stay together. [ie, they refused–four times–to grant her any visa of any kind until we had a marriage certificate. they told us so in more-or-less those words.] ain’t it great to be free?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-straight-white-married-employed-guy/62428.md?page=3)