# Asking middle class (and lower) Dopers why they vote Republican. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402 "2010-11-12T06:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/41 "2010-11-12T20:30:55Z")
I will answer based on when I hit the profile of the OP (I am fortunate to have moved into the higher tax brackets). At 18 I was a Republican: - I held social conservative beliefs based on my upbringing - I was a strong believer in small business, due to my father’s work and my own work supporting his small business. The Republicans seemed to be a better deal for that business. - I volunteered for the Marine Corps. The Democrats did not enjoy a pro-military reputation at the time, the Republicans did. - Life Member of the NRA. The Democrats were (and still are) the anti-gun party. During college, nothing that I saw from the outspoken leftists convinced me to go Democrat. Since they were the only ones obviously representing the other side, there was little attraction towards the other side. After college I married, had a kid, and started working my tail off as I moved up the corporate ladder. I began to move more towards small-l libertarianism as I realized that I did not want the Federal government to tell me what to shoot, screw or smoke. Once again, the Democrats did not offer me a better alternative, so I remained registered Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/42 "2010-11-12T21:11:27Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > My basic answers would be that I agree with the party platforms; gun rights, pro-life, low taxation and regulation, anti-union, strong defense. > > Maybe Republicans like to plan for the future. I’m not rich now, but would like to have a fair chance to become wealthy and stay there when I make it, instead of having my wealth spread around. Interesting way of putting it ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/43 "2010-11-13T01:21:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding. Why don’t you check out the revolving door between the Democrats in government and lucrative positions in top level law firms, lobbying firms, CEO positions at government-connected firms like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac or the boards of large financial firms like Goldman Sachs? > > The Democrats outspent Republicans in the last election. They have big money sponsors just like Republicans do. Media Matters for America is funded by George Soros, one of the richest men in the world. The Kennedys are one of the richest families in America. Prominent Democrats have including some of the richest Americans, such as the Rockefellers. > > Nine of the Top 15 richest members of Congress in 2010 are Democrats. Under the Democrat’s plans, profits on Wall Street have skyrocketed, while middle America continues to shed jobs. > > In the meantime, the current crop of new Republicans were elected by a truly grass-roots movement composed primarily of middle-class people. Sam, you’re arguing with an unemployed person, drawing from the public dole, sitting in Detroit. The very epitome of the victim-mentality that you described yourself in the nice post above about your childhood. You can’t possibly make any headway here. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/44 "2010-11-13T01:51:12Z")
What we all need, but certainly Dems need it more than Repubs, is serious, deep, major campaign finance reform. So long as politicians can be bought, need to be bought to keep their jobs, we are all screwed. When we find a way to choose our leaders without anyone running having to come up with boatloads of cash, we will finally have a shot at electing people who are principled and willing to back it up with actions, whatever those principles are. Now don’t ask me how, because I don’t know and I don’t know that anyone will ever know, and it’s a deep, deep sadness for me. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/45 "2010-11-13T01:56:13Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > This has got to be number 1. > > Every single republican campaigns for balanced budgets, but their plan is > > 1. Cut taxes > 2. Cut spending EXCEPT for defense, social security, medicare, medicaid. > > I just can’t see how the math adds up. > > I will support either party if they really want to balance budgets, but you have to either: > > 1. Increase taxes (and I’m ok with paying more if it will lead to balanced budgets) > 2. Cut defense, social security, medicare or medicaid (nothing else will make a difference) > > Just be honest and lay out for me how it will work. Gimme some truth, baby! It drives me CRAZY when people bitch about welfare queens liek it fucking MATTERS. It does not. The entitlement programs that are killing us isn’t food stamps. It’s the above. Take a look at the budget some time. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/46 "2010-11-13T03:09:30Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > What we all need, but certainly Dems need it more than Repubs, is serious, deep, major campaign finance reform. So long as politicians can be bought, need to be bought to keep their jobs, we are all screwed. > > When we find a way to choose our leaders without anyone running having to come up with boatloads of cash, we will finally have a shot at electing people who are principled and willing to back it up with actions, whatever those principles are. > > Now don’t ask me how, because I don’t know and I don’t know that anyone will ever know, and it’s a deep, deep sadness for me. If politicians have no power to do anything, other than legislate and execute within the basic strict construction of the Constitution, than you have nothing to worry about. Lobbyists, unions and corporations can spend all of the money they want on campaigns and it won’t matter. Because there is nothing that will be coming in return. You are treating the symptom instead of the root cause. The root cause is that politicians take your money and spend it, make regulations that restrict your freedoms and choice of trade, and in general act in their own best interests and in the interests of their big-moneyed constituents. But if we as citizens do not allow our politicians to have that power, than there is nothing that they - nor their campaign contributors - can do. So who did you vote for? Somebody who has furthered their own cause, by expanding the reach and power of government, or someone who pushed in other direction, by reducing and eliminating the power of government? Let me guess. You voted for the former. In the hope that if we only had “Good” Benevolent Dictators in charge, who punish the wicked and redistribute wealth to the deserving, than all will be well. You’re not that concerned about signing away the power you currently have, as well as the power of your fellow citizens, to keep their earnings and choices. You’re happy to sign it away. As long as it is to The Chosen One. He will lead us. He will take care of us. He will make everything OK. We’re happy if he has power. Just as long as it’s not those nasty Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/47 "2010-11-13T03:21:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding. Why don’t you check out the revolving door between the Democrats in government and lucrative positions in top level law firms, lobbying firms, CEO positions at government-connected firms like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac or the boards of large financial firms like Goldman Sachs? > > The Democrats outspent Republicans in the last election. They have big money sponsors just like Republicans do. Media Matters for America is funded by George Soros, one of the richest men in the world. The Kennedys are one of the richest families in America. Prominent Democrats have including some of the richest Americans, such as the Rockefellers. > > Nine of the Top 15 richest members of Congress in 2010 are Democrats. Under the Democrat’s plans, profits on Wall Street have skyrocketed, while middle America continues to shed jobs. > > In the meantime, the current crop of new Republicans were elected by a truly grass-roots movement composed primarily of middle-class people. Because it has been a dead solid fact for 80years or more. Because the Republican party has over and over again diminished the power of the people and propped up the corporate political ownership of America. If you believe this tea bagger mentality is a creation of the middle class, you must be falling asleep during Fox news. That Station is a huge sounding board for the rich and powerful. They use the Tea Baggers as toys. They use people like you to push complete and utter insanity as a movement for the people. it is far from it. Want to find the jobs? Don’t overlook the corporations who own and finance the Republican party and the "news "organizations. They sent them abroad for quick money.They are the ones who don’t care about American jobs. They were designed that way. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/48 "2010-11-13T03:23:36Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Sam, you’re arguing with an unemployed person, drawing from the public dole, sitting in Detroit. > > The very epitome of the victim-mentality that you described yourself in the nice post above about your childhood. You can’t possibly make any headway here. I’m pretty sure gonzomax is a retired engineer, not a welfare victim. Of the lower middle class ones I know who vote republican, the concept of the ‘angry white voter’ plays a pretty large role. They feel ‘they’ are the true citizens of the US, they pay all the taxes but get none of the benefits. But they feel that lazy people, latinos and blacks pay none of the taxes, get tons of benefits and aren’t on some level even the same quality of citizen. There is a nativism in most of the ones I know. Obviously there are going to be ones who vote for more cultural issues or economic ones. But the lower class republicans I know do so due to nativism and feeling they are being taken advantage of. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/49 "2010-11-13T03:59:50Z")
The Republicans have increased the debt every time they get power. Every time the debt drops, a Dem is in power. That is not hard to see. Bush and Cheney said" the deficits don’t matter, Reagan proved it". It that hard to follow? Then they governed like they believe it. If you honestly believe deficits matter, you can not vote Republican. They don’t hide who they work for if you are awake. They have backed every single merger that ever came down the line. Mergers kill competition. Competition is the true engine of improving capitalism. That is what corporations fight against every damn time. Competition causes price wars, a concept that is too far in the past for you people to even remember. It caused companies to improve their products to win over customers. Most of you have never experienced that either. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/50 "2010-11-13T04:02:11Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’m pretty sure gonzomax is a retired engineer, not a welfare victim. > Of the lower middle class ones I know who vote republican, the concept of the ‘angry white voter’ plays a pretty large role. They feel ‘they’ are the true citizens of the US, they pay all the taxes but get none of the benefits. But they feel that lazy people, latinos and blacks pay none of the taxes, get tons of benefits and aren’t on some level even the same quality of citizen. > > There is a nativism in most of the ones I know. Obviously there are going to be ones who vote for more cultural issues or economic ones. But the lower class republicans I know do so due to nativism and feeling they are being taken advantage of. If he’s a retired engineer, it must be of the train-driving variety. Because his basic math and analytic skills are so poor (e.g. not be able to draw distinctions between absolute values and percentages, not grasping order-of-magnitude differences in independent or dependent variables) he couldn’t have possibly passed any basic statistics or even an advanced algebra course required in a basic engineering curriculum. Or then again, maybe he was an engineer on the Edsel, Oldsmobile Alero or Pinto platforms. That would start to make a little more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/51 "2010-11-13T04:04:23Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As I’ve gotten older and more well-off, I’ve seen nothing to change my mind about the destructive effects of welfare. Here in Canada, our angriest populations are the ones that get the most government benefits. **The same is true around the world. Look at the rioting going on in France today.** I dont know what that had to do with the OP, but moreover I dont have a clue as to what that’s supposed to mean for its own sake. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/52 "2010-11-13T04:38:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I and feeling they are being taken advantage of. They are. But not by welfare queens and illegal immigrants. But directing rage at the powerless makes one feel powerful. Directing it at the powerful makes one feel powerless. It’s a pretty straightforward equation and the message manipulators know it. That’s candy from a baby stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/53 "2010-11-13T04:49:25Z")
I asked the question the way I did because I believe the author of [this](http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-America/dp/080507774X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1289623187&sr=1-1) book is absolutely right. It’s very thoughtfully and intelligently written, not at all hysterical or excessive. From the reviews: > [@](#): > > [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) Review > The largely blue collar citizens of Kansas can be counted upon to be a “red” state in any election, voting solidly Republican and possessing a deep animosity toward the left. This, according to author Thomas Frank, is a pretty self-defeating phenomenon, given that the policies of the Republican Party benefit the wealthy and powerful at the great expense of the average worker. According to Frank, the conservative establishment has tricked Kansans, playing up the emotional touchstones of conservatism and perpetuating a sense of a vast liberal empire out to crush traditional values while barely ever discussing the Republicans’ actual economic policies and what they mean to the working class. **Thus the pro-life Kansas factory worker who listens to Rush Limbaugh will repeatedly vote for the party that is less likely to protect his safety, less likely to protect his job, and less likely to benefit him economically.** To much of America, Kansas is an abstract, “where Dorothy wants to return. Where Superman grew up.” But Frank, a native Kansan, separates reality from myth in What’s the Matter with Kansas and tells the state’s socio-political history from its early days as a hotbed of leftist activism to a state so entrenched in conservatism that the only political division remaining is between the moderate and more-extreme right wings of the same party. Frank, the founding editor of The Baffler and a contributor to Harper’s and The Nation, knows the state and its people. He even includes **his own history as a young conservative idealist turned disenchanted college Republican, and his first-hand experience** , combined with a sharp wit and thorough reasoning, makes his book more credible than the elites of either the left and right who claim to understand Kansas. --John Moe --This text refers to the Hardcover edition. > > From The New Yorker > Kansas, once home to farmers who marched against “money power,” is now solidly Republican. In Frank’s scathing and high-spirited polemic, this fact is not just “the mystery of Kansas” but “the mystery of America.” **Dismissing much of the received punditry about the red-blue divide, Frank argues that the problem is the “systematic erasure of the economic” from discussions of class and its replacement with a notion of “authenticity,” whereby “there is no bad economic turn a conservative cannot do unto his buddy in the working class, as long as cultural solidarity has been cemented over a beer.”** The leaders of this backlash, by focussing on cultural issues in which victory is probably impossible (abortion, “filth” on TV), feed their base’s sense of grievance, abetted, Frank believes, by a “criminally stupid” Democratic strategy of triangulation. Liberals do not need to know more about nascar; they need to talk more about money and class. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/54 "2010-11-13T13:14:55Z")
For whatever their flaws & they are many, Republican politicians at least profess values promoting pro-unborn-life, free markets, national sovereignty & a strong defense. Every one in a while, they actually do something about it. Democrat polticians may also profess these things, but when you see a politician promoting abortion rights, gov’t economic meddling, subsuming US interests to other nations or weakening our defense, it’s more often a Democrat than a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/55 "2010-11-13T16:58:06Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I asked the question the way I did because I believe the author of [this](http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-America/dp/080507774X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1289623187&sr=1-1) book is absolutely right. It’s very thoughtfully and intelligently written, not at all hysterical or excessive. > > From the reviews: I would argue that while it may be technically correct, it’s not that thoughtful and intelligent. For the reasons Sam Stone argued above. Frank is an archetype of the look-down-his-nose-at-the-unwashed-masses-because-they-are-so-stupid-in-red-flyover-country leftist. Just like Keith Olbermann, Bill Maher and dozens of other supposed intellegentsia who comment from the coasts. The basic premise of Frank’s argument is that once government has the power to manipulate trade barriers, transfer money around from one special-interest group to another, and in general create market distortions to benefit one group over the other, you should be “smart enough” to vote for those who will distort the playing field to your own advantage. And those poor helpless saps in Kansas just can’t figure this out. They don’t vote for the Benevolent Dictators who would be happy to steer largesse their way. So stupid are they. So very, very stupid. Let’s gently cover our mouths whilst we chuckle, wince and look away. And pity them as we spread brie on our gluten-free biscuits. But maybe they are smarter than he thinks. First of all, Frank doesn’t have a clue about how basic economics works. If he thinks that somehow increased taxes on employment and trade barriers (to outsourcing, for example) somehow benefit the workers of whom he speaks, he has immediately disqualified himself from any further rational discourse on the subject. That’s one way those poor suckers in Kansas may be smarter than him, right off the bat. Secondly, maybe they don’t want the federal government involved in their lives to the extent that Frank assumes. He takes it as a “given” that the current state of government meddling is the baseline, and stupid people can’t figure out who to vote for to optimize the current equation. Fairly typical leftist and statist claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/56 "2010-11-13T18:16:15Z")
So, you figure you know more about “basic economics” than Paul Krugman? Could you explain the underlying facts which support that astonishing proposition? Or do you think he knows plenty about economics, but just lies about it under orders from Commissar Soros? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/57 "2010-11-13T18:32:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, you figure you know more about “basic economics” than Paul Krugman? Could you explain the underlying facts which support that astonishing proposition? Or do you think he knows plenty about economics, but just lies about it under orders from Commissar Soros? So, you figure you know more about “basic economics” than the late Milton Friedman? Could you explain the underlying facts which… heck, you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/58 "2010-11-13T18:36:07Z")
Appeals to authority are so cute. And what **IdahoMauleMan** said. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/59 "2010-11-13T18:38:13Z")
Sam: please define what people in this forum are doing when they “cite”. Explain your answer. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402/60 "2010-11-13T18:42:19Z")
As always another posting that sounds like a Fox Gnus segment. When we send an auto to a foreign country, they put a large tariff on it and create other barriers to make it difficult to sell our products. Why? Well if their people are going to buy care, and they are, they will produce them themselves. That increases jobs and helps their economy. That is so simple and true. Sorry it is beyond you. Outsourcing is done for cheaper labor. I think eve you must understand that. That means less jobs here. it means more jobs there. It means more buying power and economic strength for their country at the expense of ours. Then 'government meddling" in peoples lives. What an ignorant slanted concept. You can call it what you want because it has no metrics. It can not be evaluated. So you can make the determination all by yourself. You just know it when you see it don’t you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asking-middle-class-and-lower-dopers-why-they-vote-republican/560402.md?page=4)