# Aspects of pop culture people seem to misunderstand **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417 "2013-01-16T20:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/81 "2013-01-21T22:26:30Z")
The idea that Kirk never faced the “no-win scenario.” He took the test. He faced the scenario. He _lost._ He took it again, with full knowledge of what was going to happen. He faced it again. He _lost again._ He cheated, changed it so that it was a possible-win scenario, took it again and won. “Woohoo! Told you so; there’s no such thing as a no-win scenario!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/82 "2013-01-21T23:15:44Z")
Well, Kirk acknowledged the hollowness of his _Kobyashi Maru_ victory, especially compared to the no-cheats-can-help death of Spock. It’s in his conversation with David Marcus near the end of the movie, [quoted from memory] : “I’ve never faced death, I’ve _cheated_ death, and patted myself on the back for my cleverness.” ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/83 "2013-01-22T00:18:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Kirk acknowledged the hollowness of his _Kobyashi Maru_ victory, especially compared to the no-cheats-can-help death of Spock. It’s in his conversation with David Marcus near the end of the movie, > [quoted from memory] > : > > “I’ve never faced death, I’ve _cheated_ death, and patted myself on the back for my cleverness.” See? Even _he_ doesn’t realize he’s faced death. Remember when he was trapped in a spacesuit in space, shifting back and forth between realities? Fighting a dual, mano-a-vulcano, with Spock (and getting his ass kicked)? He’s faced death ALL OVER THE PLACE. Hell, the man has already DIED a couple times by that point. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/84 "2013-01-22T00:36:24Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > Anyway, as for the OP - I’d suggest that iconic 70s film **Saturday Night Fever**. I was a little kid when it was a big sensation, so only knew about it rather than saw it. SNF is well-known as the movie that propelled disco from being a small, insular phenom in NYC to a huge world-wide fad. But a few years ago, I actually watched the flick. I’ll put a plug in for it as it really is a good film, but what struck me most is how **anti** -disco the movie is; the movie portrays the disco culture as a lurid, vapid vacuum populated by small-time losers. The whole trajectory of the film is that Travolta starts thinking of himself as some hot-shot, but gradually he grows to realize that it is a racist, misogynist, decadent scene and in the final scenes of the movie he abandons it. The movie in no way tries to make disco look glamourous or sexy. In fact it looks cheesy and sleazy as hell. I happened to catch a fair portion of _Saturday Night Fever_ on cable one night a couple of years ago, and while it didn’t really impress me as a movie I was surprised by how _dark_ it was. I had expected, based on basically every other dance movie I’d ever seen, that Tony would come to regret having ditched Annette to partner with Stephanie for the big competition and would end up reuniting with her to dance their way to victory. Not one of my better movie-ending predictions, not by a long shot. Last season they did a _SNF_ tribute episode of \*Glee \*where the teacher handed a student a copy of the movie and basically ordered him to watch it, which left me going “I think you could be fired for that in real life.” (Although compared to the other inappropriate things teachers have done on _Glee_, this barely merits a raised eyebrow. ETA: Wikipedia tells me there was a PG-rated edit of the movie released after the original R-rated version became a success, so maybe that’s what the teacher had.) ---
**Author:** ![Batsinma\_Belfry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Batsinma\_Belfry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batsinma_Belfry)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/85 "2013-01-22T02:54:54Z")
The drinking of the Kool-Aid, a` la Jim Jones. I see more and more people, use it to question someone’s sanity. And others think they are being called “crazy”, when it’s used towards them. And ICBW, wasn’t it actually Flavor-Ade, that Jones’ followers drank? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/86 "2013-01-22T02:59:52Z")
> [@Batsinma\_Belfry](#): > > The drinking of the Kool-Aid, a` la Jim Jones. I see more and more people, use it to question someone’s sanity. And others think they are being called “crazy”, when it’s used towards them. And ICBW, wasn’t it actually Flavor-Ade, that Jones’ followers drank? Yeah, but nobody knows what Flavor-Ade is, so it fails to support a meme. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/87 "2013-01-22T03:13:37Z")
> [@Batsinma\_Belfry](#): > > The drinking of the Kool-Aid, a` la Jim Jones. I see more and more people, use it to question someone’s sanity. And others think they are being called “crazy”, when it’s used towards them. And ICBW, wasn’t it actually Flavor-Ade, that Jones’ followers drank? Do you hear it used to question someone’s sanity generally ? I only hear it used to describe someone who has apparently adopted a set of beliefs with the fervor and blind obedience associated with a cult member , although often with the implication the person is crazy or stupid for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Batsinma\_Belfry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Batsinma\_Belfry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batsinma_Belfry)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/88 "2013-01-22T03:44:17Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Do you hear it used to question someone’s sanity generally ? I only hear it used to describe someone who has apparently adopted a set of beliefs with the fervor and blind obedience associated with a cult member , although often with the implication the person is crazy or stupid for doing so. Yep. Just general crazy. I doubt most of the people using it that way, know who Jim Jones was. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/89 "2013-01-22T04:02:58Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > The idea that Kirk never faced the “no-win scenario.” > > He took the test. He faced the scenario. He _lost._ > … > > He cheated, changed it so that it was a possible-win scenario, took it again and won. “Woohoo! Told you so; there’s no such thing as a no-win scenario!” He went through the scenario, but he didn’t accept it, and therefore he didn’t really face the implications. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > See? Even _he_ doesn’t realize he’s faced death. Remember when he was trapped in a spacesuit in space, shifting back and forth between realities? Fighting a dual, mano-a-vulcano, with Spock (and getting his ass kicked)? He’s faced death ALL OVER THE PLACE. Hell, the man has already DIED a couple times by that point. He has risked his life and seen death, but not accepted the possibility of the reality and unavoidability of death. But hey, he managed to cheat this round, too. It just took him a bit longer. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/90 "2013-01-22T04:21:13Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > He went through the scenario, but he didn’t accept it, and therefore he didn’t really face the implications. > > He has risked his life and seen death, but not accepted the possibility of the reality and unavoidability of death. > > But hey, he managed to cheat this round, too. It just took him a bit longer. Exactly. I think his point was that he had confronted death many times but he never had to endure the death of somebody who cared about. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/91 "2013-01-22T04:23:40Z")
One that got brought up in another thread: Elvis Costello’s song “Less Than Zero”. When it came out a lot of people (including me) assumed that Costello was singing about Lee Harvey Oswald. But the song is about Oswald Mosley. Although to confuse the issue, Costello later wrote a new version of the song that is about Lee Harvey Oswald. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/92 "2013-01-22T04:49:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Exactly. I think his point was that he had confronted death many times but he never had to endure the death of somebody who cared about. Yeah, he and his brother Sam weren’t that close. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/93 "2013-01-22T15:11:04Z")
> [@Batsinma\_Belfry](#): > > The drinking of the Kool-Aid, a` la Jim Jones. I see more and more people, use it to question someone’s sanity. And others think they are being called “crazy”, when it’s used towards them. And ICBW, wasn’t it actually Flavor-Ade, that Jones’ followers drank? They had both Kool-Aid and Flavor-Ade at the compound. There’s no question that at least part of the deadly concoction was made with Flavor-Ade, but I don’t think it’s known, or knowable, that Kool-Aid was not used. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/94 "2013-01-22T16:16:09Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > It’s a little like if Spielberg had said “The guys chasing Indiana Jones in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ were Hindu priests! You can tell by the swastikas! Just because they though black was fashionable and had German accents, people think they were _Nazis?_ They were educated in Heidelberg, that’s all!” Except that you can see little wires and flashes of light in the A.I. robots. Not something usually seen in fleshy aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/95 "2013-01-22T17:23:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, he and his brother Sam weren’t that close. The fact that I forgot the one episode where his brother was mentioned kind of rebuts the argument that his brother’s death was a life-defining event for him. There were also Benjamin Finney and Gary Mitchell, who in a couple of different episodes, were each described as Kirk’s closest friend. Both died and neither was ever mentioned in any other episode. And no mention was ever made of Kirk living through the Tarsus IV massacre after the one episode in which it was mentioned. And Kirk never mentioned his son David again in later movies. James Kirk may seem to have an uncanny ability to shrug off the deaths of people close to him. But his absolute silence on them indicates he may just be repressing his memories due to the trauma he experienced from their loss. That or poor script writing. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/96 "2013-01-22T17:43:44Z")
“What do you mean we’re supposed to remember all the things we’ve said and done in previous episodes? That would be, like, hard.” ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/97 "2013-01-22T18:03:31Z")
> [@Sam\_A.Robrin](#): > > I also still say “Indians”–if anyone objects, I just claim it’s short for “Indigenous Americans.” How about “Indigicans”? I like it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/98 "2013-01-22T18:09:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Except the entire movie A.I. is about Artificial Intelligence, not aliens. I don’t get this. Surely the movie _could_ have been about how artificial intelligence lasted so far into the future aliens encountered it. In fact, the idea that human-designed AI would some day be encountered and interpreted by non-human intelligence seems like an entirely reasonable premise for science fiction. > [@gonzoron](#): > > Except that you can see little wires and flashes of light in the A.I. robots. Not something usually seen in fleshy aliens. Now hold it right there! The _same director_ made another movie with an _alien_ in it known by a two-letter abbreviation in the title. E.T. _definitely_ displays [flashes of light](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ETChrist.jpg) in his interior. Furthermore, it’s his most famous movie and one of the most famous movie aliens of all time. I submit that it’s _entirely to be expected_ that a Spielberg alien could light up from the inside. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/99 "2013-01-22T18:18:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The fact that I forgot the one episode where his brother was mentioned kind of rebuts the argument that his brother’s death was a life-defining event for him. George Samuel Kirk was _mentioned_ in “What Are Little Girls Made Of?”, but he _died_ (and his corpse was “played” by William Shatner wearing a mustache) in “Operation – Annihilate!”. James Kirk found the corpse, Sam’s wife Aurelian died screaming later in the episode, and James’s nephew Peter was touch-and-go for a while, there. What happened to Sam’s two other children remains unclear, but one would think this would be a pretty memorable moment in James Kirk’s life. > [@](#): > > There were also Benjamin Finney and Gary Mitchell, who in a couple of different episodes, were each described as Kirk’s closest friend. Both died and neither was ever mentioned in any other episode. Finney didn’t die - he just went nuts. But, yes, he and his daughter (named Jame, after James Kirk) effectively evaporated after their episode. > [@](#): > > And Kirk never mentioned his son David again in later movies. Sure, he did. His log entry that included the phrase “I’ll never forgive the Klingons for murdering my son” (or words to that effect) was entered into evidence when Kirk (and McCoy) were tried by a Klingon court in Trek VI. Kirk (well, Shatner-Kirk) only had one movie appearance after that, and it was pretty incoherent and inconsistent with all that “Nexus” crap, so I just shrug it off. Annoyingly, he says at one point (the fifth film, I think) “I lost a brother once, but I got him back”, in reference to Spock. I recall the novelization dropped a passing reference to Sam (and that Kirk wasn’t talking about him), but that struck me as just indicating the novelization writer knew the source material better than the screenwriter. > [@](#): > > That or poor script writing. Well, that’s a given. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417/100 "2013-01-22T19:23:21Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > They had both Kool-Aid and Flavor-Ade at the compound. There’s no question that at least part of the deadly concoction was made with Flavor-Ade, but I don’t think it’s known, or knowable, that Kool-Aid was not used. Of course they didn’t drink Kool-Aid. It’s more expensive than Flavor-Aid, and you’ve got to be money conscious on your last day on earth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aspects-of-pop-culture-people-seem-to-misunderstand/647417.md?page=6)