# Assassinated v. Murdered **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707 "2008-12-26T04:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![schindler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@schindler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schindler)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/21 "2008-12-27T23:21:54Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > All assassinations are murders, but not all murders are assassinations. I _may_ have heard John Lennon’s murder referred to as an assassination once or twice, but I think that’s carrying it a bit too far, and I loved the guy. But if that really is done in all seriousness by some people, that just goes to show there’s a little bit of gray area. You have Kennedy and Archduke Franz Ferdinand at the assassination end of the scale and the guy working midnight shift at the 7-Eleven at the murder end, and those are pretty clear-cut. Somewhere in the middle, it may get a bit murky. > > However, they are all murders. I would not say all assassinations are murders either. Murder automatically has negative connotations. It would not have been murder to kill adolf eichmann (or hitler) in 1940; it would have been heroic charity. But it would be assassination nonetheless. there’s overlap between the two categories, but one is not a subclass of the other. Murder has definitive negative associations, and assassination clearly is “higher profile”. Beyond those loose boundaries, I’m sure everyone on this thread has their own opinion as to specific definitions of the two. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/22 "2008-12-27T23:53:56Z")
I swear the master did a column on this, but damned if I can find it. He pointed out a dog catcher can be assassinated, if it’s because he’s the dog catcher, and a president can be murdered, if it’s because of some personal reason. Mark David Chapman didn’t know Lennon, he killed him for the role he played. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/23 "2008-12-28T02:23:46Z")
> [@schindler](#): > > I would not say all assassinations are murders either. Murder automatically has negative connotations. It would not have been murder to kill adolf eichmann (or hitler) in 1940; it would have been heroic charity. But it would be assassination nonetheless. > > there’s overlap between the two categories, but one is not a subclass of the other. Murder has definitive negative associations, and assassination clearly is “higher profile”. Beyond those loose boundaries, I’m sure everyone on this thread has their own opinion as to specific definitions of the two. As they used to say where I grew up in Texas: “Some people just need killin’.” I don’t agree the word “murder” necessarily has negative connotations; just in the vast majority of cases. Assassinating Hitler would have been murder, but I would certainly have been okay with it. But his followers would _not_ have been okay with it, so there would have been some people for whom his “murder” definitely would have been viewed negatively. I don’t think one can judge if it’s “murder” or not based on one’s own personal feelings about it. If it’s intentional, it’s murder. Whether it’s an assassination may sometimes be open to interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![schindler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@schindler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schindler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/24 "2008-12-28T08:11:27Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > As they used to say where I grew up in Texas: “Some people just need killin’.” I don’t agree the word “murder” necessarily has negative connotations; just in the vast majority of cases. Assassinating Hitler would have been murder, but I would certainly have been okay with it. But his followers would _not_ have been okay with it, so there would have been some people for whom his “murder” definitely would have been viewed negatively. I don’t think one can judge if it’s “murder” or not based on one’s own personal feelings about it. > > If it’s intentional, it’s murder. Whether it’s an assassination may sometimes be open to interpretation. I believe you are conflating “kill” with “murder”. I have never heard “murder” with any neutral or positive connotations. “That man needs to be murdered”, or “He’s a hero- murdered some people who really deserved it”. Do those sentences sound at all reasonable to you? I mean, unless we’re talking legal definitions. That’s a totally different story. Then murder is anything intentional, divided (based on premeditation or spontaneity, like “crimes of passion”) into degrees. But the definition of murder in law has no bearing on the different connotations of murder and assassination, one of which is sometimes justifiable or justified, and one of which is always “bad”. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/25 "2008-12-29T02:41:31Z")
> [@schindler](#): > > I believe you are conflating “kill” with “murder”. I have never heard “murder” with any neutral or positive connotations. “That man needs to be murdered”, or “He’s a hero- murdered some people who really deserved it”. Do those sentences sound at all reasonable to you? > > I mean, unless we’re talking legal definitions. That’s a totally different story. Then murder is anything intentional, divided (based on premeditation or spontaneity, like “crimes of passion”) into degrees. But the definition of murder in law has no bearing on the different connotations of murder and assassination, one of which is sometimes justifiable or justified, and one of which is always “bad”. I’m confusing nothing. Hitler deserved to be murdered, and many would have proudly done it. But believe me, the good folks where I grew up were indeed saying, with every implication the word implied, that “some people just need murderin’.” "They just used the word “killin’,” but it was understood what was what. Perhaps you can see why I left the place. But I think in this thread we are talking legal definitions. Murder is intentional, otherwise it’s manslaughter or some such. Whether it’s also an assassination or not may or may not be in question. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/26 "2008-12-29T03:02:44Z")
Just because a killing is intentional,does not nessarily mean it’s murder. Had Stalin sent a sniper to assassinate Hitler it would not have been murder. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/27 "2008-12-29T03:09:04Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > Just because a killing is intentional,does not nessarily mean it’s murder. Had Stalin sent a sniper to assassinate Hitler it would not have been murder. We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not a lawyer, but if the the sniper had been arrested, I believe the charge would have been “murder,” not “assassination.” ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/28 "2008-12-29T03:28:17Z")
Legaly a soldier acting under orders is not murder. If the Germans captured him I don’t think he would have lived to stand trial. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/29 "2008-12-29T03:41:23Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > Legaly a soldier acting under orders is not murder. If the Germans captured him I don’t think he would have lived to stand trial. No, it’s doubtful that he would have. But perhaps that’s not a good example. How about if a non-military spy had done the deed? And Lee Harvey Oswald, as I recall, was booked on a “murder” charge, not an “assassination” charge. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/30 "2008-12-29T03:57:46Z")
A non military spy or even a soldier out of uniform and it’s murder, as per the Geneva Convention. Or so I was taught in Basic Training. Of course Oswald never made it to trial either. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/31 "2008-12-29T04:01:01Z")
If you kill the President, it’s assassination. If you kill George Bush, it’s murder. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/32 "2008-12-29T04:14:16Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > A non military spy or even a soldier out of uniform and it’s murder, as per the Geneva Convention. > > Or so I was taught in Basic Training. Of course Oswald never made it to trial either. Right, but Oswald was booked. Now, did Jack Ruby commit an assassination or just plain ol’ murder? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/33 "2008-12-29T04:17:43Z")
> [@schindler](#): > > It would not have been murder to kill adolf eichmann (or hitler) in 1940; it would have been heroic charity. But it would be assassination nonetheless. That’s assuming they wanted to do it because of the abominations that he was causing (which I believe was the case). But if they just wanted to take power from him it would not necessarily be heroic. They might have just continued the same policies. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/34 "2008-12-29T04:25:02Z")
Police will often book you on any charge they can, jusy to hold you, and let the prosecutors work out the actual charges later. I feel that Ruby assassinated him if it was political revenge. But if it was on orders from the Mob (or others) then it was murder. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/35 "2008-12-29T04:31:35Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > Police will often book you on any charge they can, jusy to hold you, and let the prosecutors work out the actual charges later. > I feel that Ruby assassinated him if it was political revenge. But if it was on orders from the Mob (or others) then it was murder. But there was no “assassination” statute TO book Oswald with, then or eventually. It was murder legally. (And an assassination, to boot.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/36 "2008-12-29T04:32:51Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > A non military spy or even a soldier out of uniform and it’s murder, as per the Geneva Convention. Stalin wore a uniform and had military rank, thus a sharpshooter (in uniform, yes) would be OK. Same with Hitler, not so with Roosevelt. (In SS-GB, the Nazis use the fact that Churchill wore a military uniform at times as an excuse to execute him in a secret military trial.) ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/37 "2008-12-29T04:41:18Z")
> [@](#): > > But there was no “assassination” statute TO book Oswald with, then or eventually. It was murder legally. (And an assassination, to boot.) Agreed assassination is not a crime murder is. Assassination may or may not be murder but that is for a jury to deside, if you live that long that is. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/38 "2008-12-29T04:49:04Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > But there was no “assassination” statute TO book Oswald with, then or eventually. It was murder legally. (And an assassination, to boot.) I believe federal officials have harsher penalties for their harmers. I seem to recall that assassinating the President is a distinct crime, though I have no cite and could easily be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/39 "2008-12-29T04:49:35Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > Agreed assassination is not a crime murder is. Assassination may or may not be murder but that is for a jury to deside, if you live that long that is. I’ll have to concede that if in assassinations it’s a military target by a soldier in uniform, then that cannot be counted as murder. But that’s the only exception I can think of to “assassination” being “murder.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707/40 "2008-12-29T05:15:41Z")
We _assassinated_ Adm Yamamoto, but few consider it a “crime” or murder. > **[Isoroku Yamamoto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto)** > > Isoroku Yamamoto (山本 五十六, Yamamoto Isoroku, April 4, 1884 – April 18, 1943) was a Marshal Admiral of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) and the commander-in-chief of the Combined Fleet during World War II. > Yamamoto held several important posts in the Imperial Navy, and undertook many of its changes and reorganizations, especially its development of naval aviation. He was the commander-in-chief during the early years of the Pacific War and oversaw major engagements including the attack on Pearl H... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinated-v-murdered/478707.md?page=3)