# Assassinating American Citizens--Impeach Obama **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190 "2010-11-28T18:51:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/1 "2010-11-28T18:51:10Z")
Is what situations do you think it is okay for the US president to order the assassination of an American citizen? > [@NYT](#): > > The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday. I know this is kind of an old story, but I think Obama should be impeached for this order. There are few things that a president can do that are worse than ordering the killing of an American citizen without any due process of law. The Constitution is very clear on this point: > [@US Constitution](#): > > No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, _ **nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law** _; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Anwar al-Awlaki is not soldier fighting against American or even a military actor. He is a propagandist. > [@Gregory Johnsen](#): > > He is far from the terrorist kingpin that the West has made him out to be. In fact, he isn’t even the head of his own organization, Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. That would be Nasir al-Wuhayshi, who was Osama bin Laden’s personal secretary for four years in Afghanistan. > > Nor is Mr. Awlaki the deputy commander, a position held by Said Ali al-Shihri, a former detainee at Guantánamo Bay who was repatriated to Saudi Arabia in 2007 and put in a “terrorist rehabilitation” program. (The treatment, clearly, did not take.) > > Mr. Awlaki isn’t the group’s top religious scholar (Adil al-Abab), its chief of military operations (Qassim al-Raymi), its bomb maker (Ibrahim Hassan Asiri) or even its leading ideologue (Ibrahim Suleiman al-Rubaysh). > > Rather, he is a midlevel religious functionary who happens to have American citizenship and speak English. This makes him a propaganda threat, but not one whose elimination would do anything to limit the reach of the Qaeda branch. If administration wants to kill Anwar al-Awlaki, they should capture him and put him on trial. As an American citizen (and a person), the United States government cannot kill him without a trial that offers him a jury of his peers. I hated what Bush did to the Constitution, and Obama’s action is, at minimum, equally bad, and probably worse. > **[U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric (Published 2010)](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/middleeast/07yemen.html)** > > The Obama administration authorized the killing of the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki. > **[Opinion | A False Target in Yemen (Published 2010)](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/20/opinion/20johnsen.html?_r=1&ref=anwar_al_awlaki)** > > Anwar al-Awlaki may be American, but he’s not the real threat we face from Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/2 "2010-11-28T18:59:07Z")
We had a nice, long discussion about that in [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579904) ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/3 "2010-11-28T19:23:53Z")
Thanks for the link. I see that in that thread there was discussion of Anwar al-Awlaki as terrorist group leader and/or a military actor. We know he is not his group’s leader. He is a mid-level functionary. And there is no evidence he is a military or terrorist actor. All evidence suggests he is nothing more than a propagandist. It is not like Anwar is on a battlefield. There is no evidence that Awlaki has participated in or planned any military or terrorist actions. > [@Wall Street Journal](#): > > There is no indication Mr. Awlaki played a direct role in any of the attacks, and he has never been indicted in the U.S. The President has decided to execute someone for crimes without any due process. To allow the President to do this is to say that the President can kill any American who is outside American territory. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704363504575003434023229978.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704363504575003434023229978.html) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/4 "2010-11-28T19:48:12Z")
From the OP’s first link: > [@](#): > > But the director of national intelligence, Dennis C. Blair, told a House hearing in February that such a step was possible. “We take direct actions against terrorists in the intelligence community,” he said. “If we think that direct action will involve killing an American, we get specific permission to do that.” \*\*He did not name Mr. Awlaki as a target. \*\* > [@](#): > > The possibility that Mr. Awlaki **might be added** to the target list was reported by The Los Angeles Times in January, and Reuters reported on Tuesday that he was approved for capture or killing. > > “The danger Awlaki poses to this country is no longer confined to words,” said an American official, who like other current and former officials interviewed for this article spoke of the classified counterterrorism measures on the condition of anonymity. “He’s gotten involved in plots.” So there is really no indication that he has actually been targeted. Speculation. That second link is an opinion piece and not news. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/5 "2010-11-28T19:55:18Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > If administration wants to kill Anwar al-Awlaki, they should capture him and put him on trial. As an American citizen (and a person), the United States government cannot kill him without a trial that offers him a jury of his peers. I don’t like this tactic either, but do you have a cite that the president “cannot” do it? A SCOTUS decision would do nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/6 "2010-11-28T20:02:04Z")
The U.S. Constitution is not a universal document. It is the law of the _land_, and does not apply to any actions taken outside U.S. borders. It has nothing to do with citizenship. Does a non-U.S. citizen within the borders of the United States have a right to due process? Of course. Conversely, is a U.S. citizen abroad entitled to the protection of the Constitution? I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/7 "2010-11-28T20:19:02Z")
The Authorization for the Use of Military Force authorizes the President to attack those associated with Al Qaeda. Why does this not constitute due process? Also, what does it matter whether this guy is the leader, the financier, the recruiter, or the cook of his terrorist group? At what level need an American be before he is dangerous enough to warrant military force to be used against him? If Bin Laden were American, would it be unconstitutional to send an F-18 out to drop a bomb on him? ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/8 "2010-11-28T20:39:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t like this tactic either, but do you have a cite that the president “cannot” do it? A SCOTUS decision would do nicely. Considering it is unprecedented action, there are no SCOTUS decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/9 "2010-11-28T20:45:41Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > Considering it is unprecedented action, there are no SCOTUS decisions. an unprecedented action ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/10 "2010-11-28T20:47:34Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > Considering it is unprecedented action, there are no SCOTUS decisions. I’m not sure it’s unprecedented, but if we have no ruling from the SCOTUS, then it’s not correct to state that the president “cannot” do this. As \*\*Ravenman \*\*noted, the AUMF gives the president that authority. Until the SCOTUS rules otherwise, Congress gets the benefit of the doubt. And remember, the AUMF wasn’t something that narrowly passed through Congress. It had wide, bipartisan support. IIRC, only one person in the House voted against it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/11 "2010-11-28T23:30:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The U.S. Constitution is not a universal document. It is the law of the _land_, and does not apply to any actions taken outside U.S. borders. It has nothing to do with citizenship. Does a non-U.S. citizen within the borders of the United States have a right to due process? Of course. Conversely, is a U.S. citizen abroad entitled to the protection of the Constitution? I’m not so sure. Yeah, I’m pretty sure that the constitution applies to US citizens anywhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/12 "2010-11-28T23:40:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure that the constitution applies to US citizens anywhere in the world. You sure? If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and is shot dead by US marines during combat, is that unconstitutional? If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and his group of terrorists is targeted by US marines and he’s killed during combat, is that unconstitutional? If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and leads it, and his group is targeted by US marines and he’s killed during combat, is that unconstitutional? Does it, then, become unconstitutional if a sniper or a missile is used instead of a marine fire team? I don’t think it’s at all clear as some people are painting it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/13 "2010-11-29T00:09:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure that the constitution applies to US citizens anywhere in the world. Nope. We’ve been over this a number of times. You’re a US citizen in London. Does the CIA need to get a warrant to tap your phone? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/14 "2010-11-29T00:23:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure that the constitution applies to US citizens anywhere in the world. Interesting idea. Everywhere I have ever traveled the U.S. embassy has been quick to inform me that my various U.S. constitutionally protected freedoms end when I leave U.S. jurisdiction and the local laws (or lack there of them) apply. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/15 "2010-11-29T00:27:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You sure? > If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and is shot dead by US marines during combat, is that unconstitutional? > If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and his group of terrorists is targeted by US marines and he’s killed during combat, is that unconstitutional? > If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and leads it, and his group is targeted by US marines and he’s killed during combat, is that unconstitutional? > > Does it, then, become unconstitutional if a sniper or a missile is used instead of a marine fire team? > > I don’t think it’s at all clear as some people are painting it. Don’t forget the case of Grant vs Lee. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/16 "2010-11-29T00:37:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The U.S. Constitution is not a universal document. It is the law of the _land_, and does not apply to any actions taken outside U.S. borders. It has nothing to do with citizenship. Does a non-U.S. citizen within the borders of the United States have a right to due process? Of course. Conversely, is a U.S. citizen abroad entitled to the protection of the Constitution? I’m not so sure. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure that the constitution applies to US citizens anywhere in the world. Yeah, you’ve done no research whatsoever before making this claim, have you? NOt even read the previous thread on the subject, in which you would have [found this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12970708&postcount=88): > [@Obama administration arguing they can assassinate anyone without oversight](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obama-administration-arguing-they-can-assassinate-anyone-without-oversight/555325/88): > > I assume you didn’t actually research this confident claim. Because it’s simply wrong. > > If you had, you might have read about the case of Wadih EL-Hage, a US citizen living in Kenya in the late 1990s. Believing that he was involved in terrorist activities, US authorities wiretapped his Kenyan telephone for a year. This was done without any warrant. They also broke into his house and searched it, again with no warrant. > > Evidence gained from that wiretap and search was used to convict El-Hage in criminal court in the United States, of conspiracy to murder United States nationals; conspiracy to murder internationally protected persons, United States officers, and employees engaging in official duties; and conspiracy to destroy buildings and property of the United States, all related to several embassy bombings. > > On appeal, El-Hage made the same argument that you just did: the Constitution forbids the introduction of warrantless wiretap evidence and warrantless search evidence against him, even if the evidence was gathered while he and the phone in question were in Kenya. > > The court disagreed: > > > [@126 F. Supp. 2d 264 S.D.N.Y. 2000](#): > > > > (“Warrantless electronic surveillance has been used by the Executive to collect intelligence information since at least the mid-1800s … Warrantless physical searches have been used for a much longer period of time.”). Congress has legislated with respect to domestic incidents of foreign intelligence collection, see FISA, 50 U.S.C. §§ 1801 et seq. (1978), but has not addressed the issue of foreign intelligence collection which occurs abroad. There are some broad Constitutional principles, such as reasonableness, that may apply, but what you said is wrong: the Constitution as a whole does NOT apply to US citizens anywhere in the world. Where did you get the idea that it did? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/17 "2010-11-29T00:46:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yeah, you’ve done no research whatsoever before making this claim, have you? NOt even read the previous thread on the subject, in which you would have [found this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12970708&postcount=88) Or, if he wanted a much more in depth, less one sided, link to click, he could [check out the whole of the thread rather than just one post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579904&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/18 "2010-11-29T01:21:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Or, if he wanted a much more in depth, less one sided, link to click, he could [check out the whole of the thread rather than just one post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579904&page=2) :rolleyes: Yes, he could. And if he did, he would see that the conclusion from that discussion is: There are some broad Constitutional principles, such as reasonableness, that may apply, but what he said is wrong: the Constitution as a whole does NOT apply to US citizens anywhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/19 "2010-11-29T01:27:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, he could. Good thing then that I linked to the entire thread then, wasn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190/20 "2010-11-29T03:20:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Authorization for the Use of Military Force authorizes the President to attack those associated with Al Qaeda. Why does this not constitute due process? Because someone isn’t “associated with Al Qaeda” just because the President says so? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You sure? > If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and is shot dead by US marines during combat, is that unconstitutional? > If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and his group of terrorists is targeted by US marines and he’s killed during combat, is that unconstitutional? > If a US citizen takes up arms with a terrorist organization and leads it, and his group is targeted by US marines and he’s killed during combat, is that unconstitutional? Your argument is invalid because a US citizen taking up arms and engaging US marines in combat _in the United States_ could be shot dead, no questions asked. We’re not talking about killing people currently engaged in combat with the US military. We’re talking about going out of your way to kill someone who isn’t currently shooting at you, and how much oversight should be required for such a decision. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-american-citizens-impeach-obama/562190.md?page=2)