# Assassinating the President of the United States, the Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207 "2017-12-01T01:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/101 "2017-12-02T03:38:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It does seem unreasonable, but even with your 20% number, it still seems likely that just such a decision was made - and we now celebrate yearly - on the basis of the decision of a group that was probably less than half of the population by a fair amount. > > Either we have to say that the Revolution was an unsupportable venture, reasonably speaking, and shouldn’t be accepted as moral, or that this is in fact sufficient - if that team ends up winning in the end. > > It seems likely that you’re probably never going to get more than 1/3rd or 3/5ths or however many people to logically run through the question of whether the government is operating in a philosophically justifiable fashion. Realistically, probably less than 5 in 100 of all people could be expected to actually understand the question and form a reasoned opinion on the matter. But so if that group - the 5% - are against a revolution or an assassination, but the other 95% are all for it, because they think that there’s this great guy named Caesar who would be a much better Emperor than the lawfully elected President, and Caesar is telling them to kill the President, that fact that 95% of everyone is backing Caesar still sort of doesn’t mean that you’ve got a sufficient majority. > > In a sense (despite my statement that you need a third of the country), the only real determinant is that your side wins and that they have a justification their actions that is accepted by succeeding generations. > > Regrettably, that’s not much of a standard. The real Caesar had that much. Whether the Soviet revolution did or not, I’m not certain (I feel like the succeeding generations probably figured out pretty quickly that they’d done the dumb) but it’s hard to argue that they weren’t nearly as justified in their beliefs that Socialism was the only justifiable form of government as the early Americans were about Humanism. > > But in terms of what you want to tell a loan wolf nut that wants to kill the President, I think that saying that you need 1/3rd of the country to back you is, at least, a wiser argument to make than “you need to expect that you’ll go down in history as a hero”. My apologies. My original post was much longer than what I actually submitted; my concern re: wordiness led me to leave out stuff I shouldn’t have. I also went by a number I recalled–20%–when I shouldn’t have trusted my memory. It’s impossible to get anything but estimates as to how many American colonists supported independence, but we can agree on a reasonable approximation. The best estimate for Continental Army troops is about 100,000. That does not, however, count the militias, which were, [according to historian John Tures](http://observer.com/2017/07/soldiers-militia-american-revolution/), probably 5 times that number, nor the fledgeling US navy, state navies, or privateers. The population of the colonies in 1780 was 2,780,000. Do the math, and you get 20-25% of the colonists who served directly. (For comparison, about 12% of the population fought in WWII.) And for every person who fought, there would be those who fed, clothed, and supplied the troops, took the place of men who’d gone to war, etc., etc. And finally, you have those who were in favor of independence but didn’t contribute directly to the war effort. It seems likely that a clear majority of the American colonists favored the war. I agree, though, that saying you’d need a sizable chunk of the population behind you is far better than saying a lone wolf with a motive he considers lofty would suffice. Far better, however, would be to say you’d need the legislatures of 38 states to call a Constitutional Convention to amend the Constitution to allow for assassinations. And if we get to that point, I hope I’m not around to see it. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/102 "2017-12-02T04:12:17Z")
A good short novel on this topic: “Checkpoint,” by Nicholson Baker. (It’s a debate between two friends, one of whom is determined to assassinate GWB.) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/103 "2017-12-02T04:31:45Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > That would be the lone/loan thing. These puns are killing me – luckily, someone else is president. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/104 "2017-12-02T07:15:40Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I agree, though, that saying you’d need a sizable chunk of the population behind you is far better than saying a lone wolf with a motive he considers lofty would suffice. Far better, however, would be to say you’d need the legislatures of 38 states to call a Constitutional Convention to amend the Constitution to allow for assassinations. And if we get to that point, I hope I’m not around to see it. That is an interesting alternative that I hadn’t really considered, when I have previously thought about the 2nd Amendment. Given how California behaved during the last year, under Trump, viewing the State governments as a bulwark against tyranny may be reasonable. But, of course, it would depend on the specifics of the situation. I would agree (taking your point into account) that the US Federal government, in particular, should in some way be viewed less as a place for the people to compromise, and instead as a place for the states to compromise. The Constitution can be viewed as a contract that they have all signed onto for how they expect their views be respected. So in the explicit case of Presidential or Federal tyranny, you don’t even really need to vote to assassinate the President or even get violent at all. Basically you (where “you” is a State) simply declare that the Federal government is in breach of contract, and you exit the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/105 "2017-12-02T07:16:53Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > That would be the lone/loan thing. Ah, I didn’t notice it… :o ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/106 "2017-12-02T13:07:00Z")
The important thing is to [maintain focus.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQaugoLG8Ag) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Plutonium\_Kid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Plutonium\_Kid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Plutonium_Kid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/107 "2017-12-02T21:06:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Suspension of elections doesn’t necessarily mean the dissolution of Congress. If enough of the major political figures in the rogue president’s party are in on the power grab, he could suspend all elections, cementing his party’s hold on power, and still keep Congress running as a rubber stamp for his actions. Pretty much what Rome did with its Senate after it went from a republic to an empire. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/108 "2017-12-03T05:15:47Z")
> [@The\_Plutonium\_Kid](#): > > Pretty much what Rome did with its Senate after it went from a republic to an empire. Palpatine was reading from the same playbook. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/109 "2017-12-03T06:09:25Z")
> [@The\_Plutonium\_Kid](#): > > Pretty much what Rome did with its Senate after it went from a republic to an empire. It also happened in Taiwan. When the Republic of China lost the civil war and relocated to Taiwan, Chiang declared martial law and the government was essentially locked in place. This was supposedly only a short-term temporary situation until the government could return to the mainland, but obviously that never happened. So the people who had been elected in 1947 and 1948 remained in office until 1991. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/110 "2017-12-03T18:23:44Z")
Has anyone thought about what the people around donald are going to do if he becomes an immediate danger to the world. I don’t know about assasination but you need to have a go to plan for this. He needs to be confronted, “interventioned”, and rendered harmless. By mattis, or mcmaster or someone. We may be coming closer than before this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/111 "2017-12-03T18:49:59Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > … We may be coming closer than before this weekend. What’s going on this weekend? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/112 "2017-12-03T18:58:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s going on this weekend? Same as every weekend; Trump leaves Washington to go play golf. It’d be easy to sidetrack him, when he finishes the 17th hole, change all the cup flags to “17”. He’ll gladly keep playing and since he doesn’t do any walking between shots, he could be out there indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/113 "2017-12-03T19:08:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Same as every weekend; Trump leaves Washington to go play golf. It’d be easy to sidetrack him, when he finishes the 17th hole, change all the cup flags to “17”. He’ll gladly keep playing and since he doesn’t do any walking between shots, he could be out there indefinitely. That doesn’t sound “closer than before”. Golfing sounds rather mundane and unexceptional. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/114 "2017-12-03T19:21:22Z")
They finally got the black-ops budget to cover a bunch of counterfeit Mar-a-Lago golf flags. This weekend, _Operation Endless Jailbait_ is a **go!** ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/115 "2017-12-03T19:45:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s going on this weekend? My understanding is that he will be percolating all weekend over a felony plea by his otherwise inexplicable bro-buddy, as of the day before yesterday. Nothing happening here to see. ---
**Author:** ![Barzune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@Barzune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barzune)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/116 "2017-12-03T21:16:25Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I think that, here in America, one should never assassinate government officials. It is un-American- it essentially nullifies the concepts on which the country is founded. OK, enough tiresome BS. In Europe, the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was a European crime, rapidly involving multinational military conflict, and eventually intercontinental “contributions” to the carnage. America was directly involved from the beginning - Canada was massively enlisted from the beginning - and there were huge contributions made by Asian, African and Austral nations as well, all while the United States was gathering profit and credits from the active countries. The concept that “in AMERICA” and “It is UN-AMERICAN”, with the blatant assumption that everybody in the whole world knows that nothing in north, south, middle, latin, east. west or continental America counts except for the United States, is so very much a clear explanation of why your country has elected, and deserves, the narcissistic, senile thug that you have right now.🙂 Just kidding, of course.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Barzune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@Barzune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barzune)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/117 "2017-12-03T21:41:25Z")
[COLOR=“black”]"\*\*When the American Revolution was begun, about 1/3rd of the total population were satisfied that the British government had no justifiable basis for governing them. Another 1/3rd couldn’t be bothered, and the last 1/3rd thought that the British government was the legal and justifiable governing body. Given that I would have to be\* a traitor to argue against the American Revolution,\* I basically have to accept that 1/3rd support is sufficient to get the ball rolling.\*\*" [/COLOR] Realistically, fewer than 1% of the total population were actively opposed to the British government, fewer than 20% felt “compelled” ( by social and economic force) to follow this seditious movement , another 2% were opportunistic and ambitious, and 85% simply had no voice. Your second point is most important: the revolution in the British colonies was entirely treason, particularly by civil and military officials who had sworn allegiance and loyalty to the parliament and the crown of their sponsoring country. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/118 "2017-12-04T00:37:13Z")
The OP hasn’t posted since November 30th. Gitmo? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/119 "2017-12-04T01:49:09Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > The OP hasn’t posted since November 30th. Gitmo? I’ve said about all that I have to say. Now I’m just enjoying the various other points being raised. Especially appreciated the zombie Hitler / nonagenarian steel-cage death match. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207/120 "2017-12-04T15:09:58Z")
If a president attempted to overthrow the government and set himself up as dictator for life, I’d say he/she was fair game for a bullet. Or many bullets. Specifically, cancelling elections on spurious grounds in order to keep power for himself or for his party. But first it should be apparent that his party does not intend to check his power grab. Looking back, I can almost say that from a Confederate perspective only, that John Wilkes Booth’s shooting of Lincoln was a legitimate act of war rather than an assassination. The war was all but lost at that point so the military objective aspect really doesn’t pass the smell test, but had he shot him a year earlier, I’d consider calling it an attack on a military asset and not a murder. That being said, I have always considered the Confederacy to be an unlawful rebellion, so I wouldn’t go so far as to consider either the actual assassination or a hypothetical earlier one to be justified. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assassinating-the-president-of-the-united-states-the-debate/803207.md?page=7)