# Assault Rifle Ban ends soon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764 "2003-05-22T07:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/141 "2003-05-23T22:51:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > Assault weapons are designed for taking out groups of people at a distance through withering fire, not to pop a burglar sneaking through your patio door. Again, cite please. “Assault weapons”, as covered by the ban under discussion, are not capable of fully automatic fire, and so your argument appears a little absurd. > [@](#): > > If you want a weapon for protection against crime, get a handgun or a shotgun. Certain handguns and shotguns are classified as ‘assault weapons’ according to the definition used in the ban under discussion. Your statement above is therefore nonsesnical. ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/142 "2003-05-23T22:56:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \* > I would have a LOT more respect for the NRA and pro-gun groups in general if THEY sat down and agreed on what should and should not be allowed when it comes to firearm ownership and presented that to the American public. The NRA has already done that, the problem is, of course, that anti-gun groups just keep adding more to the bans. Why do you not respect the NRA for their alleged failure to provide an agreement on what should and should not be allowed but offer nothing against the anti-gun groups for their unwillingness to do the same? Anyone who favors living in a free society should worry more about the goals of those who seek to impose restrictions on people than those who oppose needless restrictions, but as far as anyone can tell the Brady Bunch and others won’t stop at anything short of a defacto ban of private ownership of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/143 "2003-05-23T23:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \* > Of course it’s the ‘too burdensome’ aspect that is open to huge debate. I still think it’s a good start for the gun community itself to start it off by trying to suggest measures themselves…something they can live with that also makes it harder for criminals to get guns. It doesn’t have to be a 100% solution…it never could be but a significant decrease would be worthwhile. \*\* What, you mean like the way the NRA came up with Project Exile and other programs designed to actually prosecute criminals for misusing guns instead of just harassing law-abiding gun owners? The NRA and other parts of the ‘gun community’ have been suggesting such measures for years despite the reluctance of the Brady Bunch and other gun-grabbing groups to actually do something that affects criminals instead of ordinary citizens. As far as availability, I’ll make a deal - when you can come up with a way to make a signficant decrease in the availability of cocaine (which gets used up rather rapidly, unlike guns which last for decades) to criminals then we’ll look at applying that same technique to guns. Cocaine is available to anyone who wants it with at most a drive to a decent-sized city despite being far more restricted than any firearm (completely illegal aside from a very few, very limited exceptions). ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/144 "2003-05-23T23:28:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally posted by GusNSpot > > If a criminal likes a certain kind of weapon and it now costs more that it used to , he does not currently have a weapon, so he will not use that weapon because of the cost to law abiding people? > > > > ::: Bawahahahah ::: cough, cough ,::: sorry:::::: > > I hate to break this to ya, but tightened supply of a commodity increases its cost in the marketplace. Whether the market is legal or illegal has no effect on that simple equation. Econ 101, dude.I hate to break this to ya, but tightened supply of a commodity increases its cost in the marketplace. Whether the market is legal or illegal has no effect on that simple equation. Econ 101, dude. Oh, the bad guys usually buy their guns in the market place. ::: I forgot that part:::: … especially the hard to get expensive ones… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/145 "2003-05-23T23:54:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > The first 20 or so times you did this it could have been a simple mistake, but since you’ve been told over and over what you posted above is clearly a deliberate attempt to be deceptive. Lovely. Once again, another gun debate degenerates into accusations of dishonesty. Such a _wonderful_ way of Next time you have a piddly-ass useless fucking nitpick, how 'bout you just _correct_ the perceived error instead of launching straight into calling me a lying sonofabitch? And frankly, I have no interest whatsoever in responding further to such a poster. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/146 "2003-05-23T23:56:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GusNSpot \* > Oh, the bad guys usually buy their guns in the market place. ::: I forgot that part:::: … especially the hard to get expensive ones… :smack: _All_ commodities are bought in the marketplace, Gus. Sometimes, it’s even the black market. Seriously, check out an economics textbook sometime. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/147 "2003-05-24T00:22:43Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally posted by GusNSpot > > Oh, the bad guys usually buy their guns in the market place. ::: I forgot that part:::: … especially the hard to get expensive ones… > > All commodities are bought in the marketplace, Gus. Sometimes, it’s even the black market. Seriously, check out an economics textbook sometime. Ahh that’s right, criminals don’t ever steal stuff… :smack: aside:::::::: **Minty** Somewhere above you made noise about how we are misunderstanding you and your position and that you are not into _gun banning_ and other vague references. Now, instead of linking to some million page thread as this one is becoming also, where do **you stand?** What gun can I (average citizen) own? Number of guns can I own? Is there another restriction or qualification that an average citizen must meet to own a gun if you were King? I will even agree to a background check with the average conditions as exist in all the states that allow CC. So, now that we have removed probably 90% of the guns from our citizens, because I’m sure that little old ladies and farmers and country folks by the millions have had DUI’s and such so they are SOL but even with that, what gun does MINTY say is allowed? Come on stand up and say that this gun or guns are okay. If none are, then that means… You get to be KING, speak… Pretty Please… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/148 "2003-05-24T01:31:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GusNSpot \* > Ahh that’s right, criminals don’t ever steal stuff… :smack: A thief cannot make something magically appear merely by desiring to steal it. If the desired item does not exist or exists only in small numbers, then > [@](#): > > Now, instead of linking to some million page thread as this one is becoming also, where do **you stand?** Thanks for asking. In a nutshell: comprehensive registration, universal background checks, licensing comparable to existing federal machinegun regulations for assault weapons (however defined). Further details [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=118415), offered despite your professed aversion to reading additional threads. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/149 "2003-05-24T01:53:29Z")
When asked where he stands on gun control, **minty green** replied: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > **Thanks for asking. In a nutshell: comprehensive registration, universal background checks, licensing comparable to existing federal machinegun regulations for assault weapons (however defined).** Assault weapons “However defined”? Even if the definition is “guns that look scary to the majority of voters because they remember seeing them in a violent TV show?” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/150 "2003-05-24T02:05:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > \*\*As far as availability, I’ll make a deal - when you can come up with a way to make a signficant decrease in the availability of cocaine (which gets used up rather rapidly, unlike guns which last for decades) to criminals then we’ll look at applying that same technique to guns. Cocaine is available to anyone who wants it with at most a drive to a decent-sized city despite being far more restricted than any firearm (completely illegal aside from a very few, very limited exceptions). \*\* I’ll flip your challenge to illustrate its problem… Ban ALL guns. It works in a number of other countries (Great Britain and Japan come to mind). There are a few nogoodniks in those countries that have guns but a simple glance at their firearm crime rates tells the story compared to the US. Those countries also have cocaine flowing about despite being illegal as well so I don’t think think you can’t equate the two. Cocaine use as % of population (1998): Japan – Not Available United Kingdom – 1.0 United States – 3.2 SOURCE: .[United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention](http://www.unodc.org/pdf/world_drug_report_2000/report_2001-01-22_1.pdf) Homicides involving firearms (per 100,000 people in 1997) Japan – 0.03 United Kingdom – 0.13 United States – 6.24 SOURCE: [United Nations Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice](http://www.uncjin.org/Documents/6comm/4e.pdf) They seem to have less of a drug problem but FAR less of a gun crime problem. Seems to me that gun control can be effective. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/151 "2003-05-24T02:45:28Z")
Yes, **tracer**. That’s exactly what I meant. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/152 "2003-05-24T02:48:57Z")
> [@](#): > > They seem to have less of a drug problem but FAR less of a gun crime problem. Seems to me that gun control can be effective. That ignores the fact that there are currently about as many guns in the United States as there are people. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/153 "2003-05-24T03:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \* > \*\*They seem to have less of a drug problem but FAR less of a gun crime problem. Seems to me that gun control can be effective. \*\* Seems to me that they are a less violent people. I would rather stop people in the US from wanting to kill each other, rather than restricting the tools they use. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/154 "2003-05-24T03:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \* > \*\*I think you have to define what you are defending against. If you are in a trench facing a thousand angry soldiers rushing at you then you will definitely want an assault rifle as opposed to a handgun to use.] No, if I was in a trench facing a thousand angry soldiers I would want a belt-fed machine gun and air support. > [@](#): > > However, for most instances an average person is likely to encounter at home or on the street an assault rifle is not as useful as a handgun. More likely than not you will be in close proximity to your attacker. Bringing a handgun to bear is generally much faster than bringing an assault weapon to bear. If your opponent has a handgun and is five feet away your likely to have three shots in you before you could begin to fire. \*\* 1. If my 5-feet-away opponent already has his handgun pointed at me ready to fire and I don’t, I’m already pretty much toast whether I have a handgun or a howitzer. If he doesn’t, an SKS is pretty handy. I like my chances. 2. Handguns are MUCH more difficult to shoot accurately without mucho training. I doubt Freddy the Felon spends much time at the range. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/155 "2003-05-24T03:24:07Z")
Since this subject has been beaten to death…I’ll just say, At close range, from the hip or whatever…me and my sawed off 12ga. 3" mag. 00buck, will still win in a throwdown. If we’re goin’ huntin’ game, that’s another story. 😉 and BTW…for those of you who think you can keep weapons out of the hands of those who want them. **You are fu** ing crazy!\*\* Anyone with a will can find a way…I have built a few guns in my day from scratch. It ain’t that hard to do. BUT, I will say this. It does make it a little harder for the masses. There are probably fewer gun related injuries/accidents/crimes as a result of stricter gun laws. (this is said w/out cites, I could be wrong) I have always been in favor of record checks done on site. Run the drivers license…if it checks out cool, otherwise it’s at least a week till you can get it. and someone said something about…“ban all guns”, that’s bullshit, to compare the US to other countries is not a fair analogy. The US is a “new” nation compared to the regular examples cited and none of them have their foundations based on a gun culture. In time maybe…not at present. If you could guarantee all guns everywhere would cease to exist. I might consider the idea. Then again, I will always be able to have a gun if I want one because I will simply make it myself. AS CAN MANY OTHER PEOPLE Do you plan on banning guns worldwide? If not, then what’s the point? ooops, sorry I kind of went on a little rant there, my apologies. Carry on ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/156 "2003-05-24T03:28:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Assault weapons are designed for taking out groups of people at a distance through withering fire, not to pop a burglar sneaking through your patio door. If you want a weapon for protection against crime, get a handgun or a shotgun. > \*\* OK, repeat after me: “An assault RIFLE is a full-auto weapon.” “An assault WEAPON is a semi-auto that has naughty bits that scare people. It has the same rate-of-fire as a handgun.” And, firing an intermediate cartridge, an AK or SKS is perfect for popping a burgler…much more controllable than a handgun. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/157 "2003-05-24T03:29:13Z")
Yeah, well what do you expect after [half a quart of Cazadores and a case of Tequiza](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3462775#post3462775)? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/158 "2003-05-24T03:30:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balle\_M \* > \*\*OK, repeat after me: > > “An assault RIFLE is a full-auto weapon.” > > “An assault WEAPON is a semi-auto that has naughty bits that scare people. It has the same rate-of-fire as a handgun.” OK, repeat after me: I don’t give a shit about the Guns and Ammo Magazine definition. Deal with the squishiness. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/159 "2003-05-24T03:39:56Z")
[Any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles designed for individual use in combat.](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=assault%20rifle) [any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles designed for military use with large capacity magazines](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=assault+rifle) [Any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles designed for individual use in combat.](http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/a/a0470925.html) [Any of the automatic rifles with large magazines designed for military use.](http://ultralingua.net/results.html?lookup_action=en%7Cenglish%7Cenglish&lookup_letters=assault+rifle) [Assault rifle and assault weapon are colloquial terms for various types of intermediate-power long guns.](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault+rifle) Isn’t it funny how the English language doesn’t always work out the way you’d like it to? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764/160 "2003-05-24T03:47:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** said: > I do not know details on this so correct me if I’m wrong (i.e. don’t flame me) but I thought gun shows rendered the NICS essentially useless. And you’d be incorrect. The first time I attempted to buy my Ruger pistol was at a gun show from a licensed dealer, which would’ve been necessary for any transfer of a handgun. After waiting over two hours for the NICS computers to be back online so the dealer could run my name, driver’s license number, and SSN through the system, I had to leave the gun show without the pistol and arrange to go to the shop another day when my information could be checked. No NICS, no gun. The only time NICS does not apply is when one private citizen sells a firearm (long gun only) to another private citizen. Whether that happens in a living room, gun show, or garage, sale from private citizen to private citizen is the only exception. There is no such thing as a gun show loophole. > [@](#): > > What about ‘un-licensed’ dealers. Maybe ‘dealers’ is the worng word but what I mean is what if Jonh Doe wants to sell his gun to Joe Citizen? Neither of them are gun dealers…just two people agreeing to a swap. Are they covered by the NICS? See above. If it is a handgun, they **are required** to use a FFL holding dealer as an intermediary. Otherwise, NICS does not apply; however, it is a felony for a person to sell a firearm to a person (s)he knows is prohibited by law from owning one. Any responsible gun owner, and that includes myself, will not sell or buy from someone whose history they don’t know. I did buy my Remington 700 from a very close friend of my father’s, someone who I could be sure was not a criminal, and who could be sure I was not. > [@](#): > > Laser sights? Far too useful for competition shooting for me to say we should ban those. > [@](#): > > **Debaser** said: > There is no reasonable concession that the NRA could make that would make the Brady people say “OK, that sounds reasonable, lets pack up and quit.” Not even the fact that the NRA overwhelmingly supports Project Exile. > [@](#): > > **Whack-a-Mole** said: > Theoretically the NRA and other such lobby groups could propose legislation that gun owners can live with and would have a real impact on criminal use without real fear that they’ve given-up the ship to the outright ban advocates. Like Project Exile, which both the NRA and the anti-gunners supported? I never saw Sarah Brady’s ilk giving the NRA any credit for that one, and it’s one of those bills that’s tough on _criminals_ without further eroding rights. > [@](#): > > **minty green** said: > It is a loophole in that it enables gun purchasers to avoid the necessity of a background check. You do favor background checks, don’t you, Doc? I don’t favor having to pay hundreds of dollars to transfer to my ownership the vast collection of antique and expensive rifles that are currently willed to me by my father, no. Of what use is a background check if I sell my sister a 16 guage shotgun? > [@](#): > > **lucwarm** said: > IMHO, in a free country, stuff shouldn’t be banned absent a compelling reason. You mean those compelling reasons **minty** keeps saying exists but refuses to actually state what they are or provide any kind of cite for why he believes they exist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-rifle-ban-ends-soon/176764.md?page=9)