# Assault Weapon Definition **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 18, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456 "2012-12-18T21:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/21 "2012-12-19T05:37:14Z")
**gnoitall** ’s post gives the precise definition of an “assault weapon”. There is no other. It is a legal term invented for the sole purpose of passing a law controlling the weapons that had those characteristics. No matter how much you quibble over it, if you define them as anything else you’re wrong, that is what they legally are. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/22 "2012-12-19T14:38:56Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > But the pistol grip shown in the example “C” you linked to isn’t really what people are talking about when they mean pistol grip - is it? They are about guns with - well grips that look like pistols? I realize you think of these as all the same gun. However - if the grip of the gun offers any benefit (and I’m not saying it does) - then they aren’t functionally the same. > > [Pick the assult weapon to ban - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675938) > > First example Has two grips while third has one. Clearly these don’t function the same. If one actually was to allow someone to shoot from the hip better - I can the rationale for banning one over the other. Of course, I’m not really sure what prevents someone from shooting up a place by accurately firing a weapon, but I think the logic from the gun control perspective is: > > There is no sportsman reason to shoot from the hip > This gun has features that allows it to be done so > Therefore there is no reason to have that gun > > If there truly is no difference for a pistol grip - then the emphasis should be on arguing that - not for posts that show the “same gun” when I can clearly see with my eyes they are not the same gun. I realize that to a gun expert - they may be the same, but they are not the same to a non gun expert - as we are looking at the entire gun - stock and all. > > So - and as you can tell I am not a gun expert - does a flash suppressor always mean grenade launcher and vice versa? I don’t know where the shoot from the hip thing came from. The military uses pistol grips. The military does not train soldiers to shoot form the hip. That is something you see in movies or with undiciplined troops. Pistol grips are ergonomic features only. A flash suppressor has nothing to do with a grenade launcher. I have no idea where you got that. It is to suppress the flash, hence the name. When you shoot there is a muzzle flash from the combustion in the chamber. A flash suppressor is designed to reduce the amount of burning gas coming out of the end of the barrel. It’s main function is so that in low light conditions your night vision isn’t ruined by firing your own weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/23 "2012-12-19T14:48:24Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > A flash suppressor has nothing to do with a grenade launcher. I have no idea where you got that. It is to suppress the flash, hence the name. When you shoot there is a muzzle flash from the combustion in the chamber. A flash suppressor is designed to reduce the amount of burning gas coming out of the end of the barrel. It’s main function is so that in low light conditions your night vision isn’t ruined by firing your own weapon. The flash suppressor-grenade launcher connection is perfectly valid and I explained it briefly upthread.. The flash suppressor as seen on the end of an M-16A2 and many commercial AR-15’s is 22mm in size to properly interface with [NATO-standard rifle grenades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_mm_grenade). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/24 "2012-12-19T15:09:28Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > The primary reason for a pistol grip is because a modern infantry rifle has a straight stock and puts the firing hand/wrist at a very awkward angle with a conventional stock. A BAR(full-auto) has a conventional stock and is fired from the hip. Far too heavy and powerful to fire from the shoulder. Actually, it’s primarily the heavy part. You can fire a BAR from the shoulder without too much trouble, but tactically, you’re better off prone using the bipod, like any light machine gun or squad automatic rifle. (I’ve actually fired a BAR on full auto from both positions; surprisingly easy to control and the reason why is because it’s so heavy) The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban was idiotic because it basically outlawed cosmetic features, not anything functional. There’s nothing about a flash suppressor, bayonet lug or any of the other bannable characteristics that would prevent them being used in a crime. All the ban did is jack up prices (which were high enough to prevent them from being used in very many crimes anyway) and basically kill the import market in those thing (along with some other laws that were enacted in that time period). For all the freaking out and screaming about assault weapons, this Sandy Hook mess is the first incident like this that actually used a real assault rifle. Columbine was primarily done with shotguns, Thurston High was 9mm and 22 pistols and rifles, VA Tech was a 9mm and a 22 pistol, the San Ysidro massacre was a 9mm pistol and a semi-auto UZI. None of them were assault rifles; the only shootings that I can think of using an assault rifle were the Beltway sniper shootings, which could have very easily have been done with bolt action hunting rifles, which incidentally, are more similar to what military snipers use than the assault rifles that Malvo and Boyd used. Personally I think everyone needs to calm the hell down on both sides; give it say… 90 or 120 days and then revisit all this stuff and discuss it rationally. Any legislation passed anytime soon will likely be idiotic knee-jerk feel-good stuff meant to placate hysterical people, not well thought out, deliberate and measured legislation. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/25 "2012-12-19T17:57:59Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I don’t know where the shoot from the hip thing came from. The military uses pistol grips. The military does not train soldiers to shoot form the hip. That is something you see in movies or with undiciplined troops. Pistol grips are ergonomic features only. > > A flash suppressor has nothing to do with a grenade launcher. I have no idea where you got that. It is to suppress the flash, hence the name. When you shoot there is a muzzle flash from the combustion in the chamber. A flash suppressor is designed to reduce the amount of burning gas coming out of the end of the barrel. It’s main function is so that in low light conditions your night vision isn’t ruined by firing your own weapon. Flash suppressors can also be designed to double as muzzle brakes such that the force of the expelled gas helps to prevent the muzzle of the gun from riding up during sustained fire. However I think think that this is mainly an issue with full auto and selective fire weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/26 "2012-12-19T18:27:37Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The flash suppressor-grenade launcher connection is perfectly valid and I explained it briefly upthread.. The flash suppressor as seen on the end of an M-16A2 and many commercial AR-15’s is 22mm in size to properly interface with [NATO-standard rifle grenades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_mm_grenade). Incorrect. The only difference is that on military weapons that might possibly be needed to mount a grenade launcher, a different type of suppressor is used. One that doesn’t have any opening to the bottom. The main reason for a flash suppressor is to suppress muzzle flash and has nothing to do with grenade launchers. I have been firing M16s and now M4s in the Army for 24 years. When I first started the rifles we had were equipped with flash suppressor that had openings to the bottom. It was in later models that they modified the flash suppressor. The fact remains that the flash suppressor was a feature that had nothing to do with grenade launchers. And it is a feature that in no way changes the function of the weapon. Oh and by the way, in the 24 years I have in the army I have never seen or heard of a grenade like the one you linked to. The entire time I have been in the standard grenade launcher has been the 40mm M203 which is now being replace by the 40mm M320. I really have no idea what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/27 "2012-12-19T18:33:00Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Flash suppressors can also be designed to double as muzzle brakes such that the force of the expelled gas helps to prevent the muzzle of the gun from riding up during sustained fire. However I think think that this is mainly an issue with full auto and selective fire weapons. I have only heard of muzzle breaks on higher caliber rifles to cut down on recoil. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/28 "2012-12-19T18:50:46Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Incorrect. The only difference is that on military weapons that might possibly be needed to mount a grenade launcher, a different type of suppressor is used. One that doesn’t have any opening to the bottom. The main reason for a flash suppressor is to suppress muzzle flash and has nothing to do with grenade launchers. I have been firing M16s and now M4s in the Army for 24 years. When I first started the rifles we had were equipt with flash suppressor that had openings to the bottom. It was in later models that they modified the flash suppressor. The fact remains that the flash suppressor was a feature that had nothing to do with grenade launchers. And it is a feature that in no way changes the function of the weapon. You are mistaken, despite your years of service. Wikipedia on [Rifle Grenades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade) > [@](#): > > All current NATO rifles are capable of launching STANAG 22mm rifle grenades from their flash hiders without the use of an adapter. The [slots were removed](http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2011/07/flash-suppressor-aka-flash-hider.html)from the bottom of the flash suppressor so that, when the rifle is fired from the prone position, gas isn’t directed downward to kick up dust/debris. Next time you are firing one of Uncle Sam’s rifles, measure the diameter of the flash hider. Bet you it is 22mm. If you take the time to look up some of the rule-beater stuff that was sold during the AWB, you will find that muzzle devices were made that looked like m-16 flash suppressors but were made larger than 22mm specifically to get around the “grenade launcher” foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/29 "2012-12-19T18:58:24Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Oh and by the way, in the 24 years I have in the army I have never seen or heard of a grenade like the one you linked to. The entire time I have been in the standard grenade launcher has been the 40mm M203 which is now being replace by the 40mm M320. I really have no idea what you are talking about. Did you read any of what I wrote other than the words “grendade launcher?” I noted upthread that rifle grenades are passe in 1st world militaries because of dedicated grenade launchers like the 40mm with which you are familiar. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/30 "2012-12-19T19:02:40Z")
I think a pretty reasonable definition is if the weapon is unlockable in any Call of Duty or Battlefield game. > [@DataX](#): > > The pistol grip - according to those that don’t like them - allows for hip/spray firing. Which is wildly inaccurate! I prefer my gun-toting maniac to fire controlled, aimed bursts. Not spray and pray from the hip. > [@bump](#): > > The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban was idiotic because it basically outlawed cosmetic features, not anything functional. There’s nothing about a flash suppressor, bayonet lug or any of the other bannable characteristics that would prevent them being used in a crime Really? Since the bayonet lug ban, how many people have been mugged by a Brittish Redcoat? ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/31 "2012-12-19T19:38:51Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > **gnoitall** ’s post gives the precise definition of an “assault weapon”. There is no other. It is a legal term invented for the sole purpose of passing a law controlling the weapons that had those characteristics. No matter how much you quibble over it, if you define them as anything else you’re wrong, that is what they legally are. Actually, it gives the precise legal definition of what an “assault weapon” _was_ under a previous ill-conceived ban. There’s no reason that an alternative definition couldn’t be developed. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/32 "2012-12-19T20:01:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > . None of them were assault rifles; the only shootings that I can think of using an assault rifle were the Beltway sniper shootings, which could have very easily have been done with bolt action hunting rifles, which incidentally, are more similar to what military snipers use than the assault rifles that Malvo and Boyd used. > **[North Hollywood shootout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)** > > Mătăsăreanu: > The North Hollywood shootout, also known as the Battle of North Hollywood, was a confrontation between two heavily armed and armored bank robbers, Larry Phillips Jr. and Emil Mătăsăreanu, and police officers in the North Hollywood neighborhood of Los Angeles on February 28, 1997. Both robbers were killed, twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the... There was also this LA bank robbery, 15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/33 "2012-12-19T21:20:30Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > [North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) > > There was also this LA bank robbery, 15 years ago. True, but I meant more like mass killings, not crimes where assault weapons may have been used. Even at that, your example only has 2 killed- the perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/34 "2012-12-19T21:30:56Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I have only heard of muzzle breaks on higher caliber rifles to cut down on recoil. From [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_brake) > [@](#): > > Muzzle brakes and recoil compensators are devices that are either fitted to, or designed as a permanent part of, the muzzle of a firearm or cannon to redirect propellant gases with the effect of countering both recoil of the gun and unwanted rising of the barrel during rapid fire.[1] Muzzle brakes are useful for combat and timed competition shooting, and are commonly found on rifles firing large cartridges (such as big-game rifles), as well as some artillery and tank guns. They are also used on pistols for practical pistol competitions, and are usually called compensators in this context.[2] ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/35 "2012-12-19T21:34:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Did you read any of what I wrote other than the words “grendade launcher?” I noted upthread that rifle grenades are passe in 1st world militaries because of dedicated grenade launchers like the 40mm with which you are familiar. Rifle grenades were passé long before M16s were changed to have flash suppressors. That wiki page is wildly inaccurate. It says that rifle grenades were replaced in the late 70s by the M79 and then the M203. The M79 came into the inventory in 61 and was widely used during Viet Nam. But regardless that wasn’t what was brought up. It was asked (not by you)if a flash suppressor meant there was a grenade launcher. The answer is no. A flash suppressor has nothing to do with grenade launchers. If at some point some guy in Aberdeen or Picatinny felt they should be 22mm because of the extra grenades they have laying around, that has nothing to do with why rifles have flash suppressors or the function of them. The army is actually getting back to using rifle grenades for a different purpose. Grenade rocket entry munitions are used to knock down doors. They are really fun to shoot. Its a same shaped charge and not a high explosive or frag round. They are relatively new so they are designed to fit the M4. The M4 is not designed to fit the GREM. But it is still meaningless as to what the function of a flash suppressor is. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/36 "2012-12-19T21:39:00Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Rifle grenades were passé long before M16s were changed to have flash suppressors. > > That wiki page is wildly inaccurate. It says that rifle grenades were replaced in the late 70s by the M79 and then the M203. The M79 came into the inventory in 61 and was widely used during Viet Nam. > > But regardless that wasn’t what was brought up. It was asked (not by you)if a flash suppressor meant there was a grenade launcher. The answer is no. A flash suppressor has nothing to do with grenade launchers. If at some point some guy in Aberdeen or Picatinny felt they should be 22mm because of the extra grenades they have laying around, that has nothing to do with why rifles have flash suppressors or the function of them. > > The army is actually getting back to using rifle grenades for a different purpose. Grenade rocket entry munitions are used to knock down doors. They are really fun to shoot. Its a same shaped charge and not a high explosive or frag round. They are relatively new so they are designed to fit the M4. The M4 is not designed to fit the GREM. But it is still meaningless as to what the function of a flash suppressor is. Good Christ, I feel like it’s 1980 and I’m back at Ft. Leonard Wood. What’s next? You going to tell me that there is no such gun as a P-38 and then wave a can opener in my face? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/37 "2012-12-19T21:47:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Good Christ, I feel like it’s 1980 and I’m back at Ft. Leonard Wood. What’s next? You going to tell me that there is no such gun as a P-38 and then wave a can opener in my face? :rolleyes: Nope. I own a P-38. Bought it in Germany about 1989. Nice Walther factory refit from 1964. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/38 "2012-12-19T21:53:54Z")
So will you calm down if I tell you you are right about the diameter of the flash suppressor on a M16 variant? It has no bearing since the original assault weapons ban made no mention of size. > [@](#): > > a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor > > a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer No mention of size because it is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/39 "2012-12-19T21:54:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A gun that scares liberals. > > Regards, > Shodan Pretty much this. It’s a gun (already scary right there) that looks even scarier to people who don’t know dick about guns, don’t want to know dick about them…other than they want to ban them. Assault Weapon SOUNDS scary, and is close to [Assault Rifle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle), which is the term used by most military’s about their main battle field rifle. I suppose the reason why liberals and anti-gun folks continue to pursue this Assault Weapons thingy is because it worked…even though the ban was non-nonsensical to anyone with a clue, it SOUNDS scary, the guns LOOK scary, and they were able to push through the ban for years without any major issues, other than grumbling from ‘gun nuts’ and the like. Why not stick with success? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456/40 "2012-12-19T21:59:15Z")
I’ve had Soldiers and Marines tell me all kinds of stuff about weapons that was just flatly untrue but that they believed nonetheless. I’m not talking about new boots, either. I heard that the M-16 fires tumbling bullets about half a million times, including from combat veterans. The bottom line for me is that military service does not de facto indicate a deep or accurate knowledge of weapons and their history. It is a subject that has to be studied like any other. The military has its own set of myths and misconceptions that get passed along generationally from one grunt to the next. I’m not going to beat my head against the wall with you over rifle grenades any further and if the two or three people in the whole world who might actually have been following this and care want to do so, the historical information is out there in print and on the web. Edward C. Ezell’s copious firearms histories would be an excellent place to start, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assault-weapon-definition/644456.md?page=3)