# Asserted: a fantasy, even a disgusting one, is morally neutral. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799 "2005-11-19T14:51:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/41 "2005-11-19T23:20:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No matter how much it might repulse me, I don’t think I have the right to judge someone who’s not causing direct harm to another person. But whether or not we have the right to judge another person isn’t the only reason we discuss the morality of actions: we also do it in order to more rationally police our own actions, and I think this discussion is more germane from that perspective: after all, I don’t know about anyone else’s weird thoughts, only my own. My concern is that I think it is the worst kind of hubris to assume we have absolute control over the relationship between our thought and our actions. We are not entirely rational creatures, however much we may strive to be. As such, if you regularly indulge in graphic fantasies about murdering members of a minority group, I don’t think you can be sure that doesn’t have any impact on how you view members of that group, and you have to either sucessfully stop those thoughts OR you shouldn’t ever take a job or put yourself in a positoin that would involve making judgements about whether or not you should act violently towards members of that group (e.g…, become a cop in an area with minorities, which is everywhere). If your sexual fantasies are predominatly rape fantasies, you should never be on a jury in a rape trial. If (as is already mentioned) you have pedophilliac fantasies, you limit your contact with children. It may well be that your actions and decsions won’t be affected by your thoughts, but it’s the height of arrogance, and immoral, to risk someone else’s wellbeing on your own judgement of your judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/42 "2005-11-19T23:21:25Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > It seems that our fundamental disagreement is on the issue of whether _people_ are immoral, or only actions. If “immoral” is a word that can only be applied to actions, then, yes, my views are incorrect. However, I still feel that someone can be immoral, or evil, or sinful, or whatever other word you prefer, even if their actions don’t harm anyone else. You may disagree - if so, I accept your viewpoint, and hope that you will accept mine as a different one. I think “immorality” can be ascribed to people, but only on the basis of immoral acts. I simply don’t see the basis for calling someone immoral on the basis of thoughts, especially thoughts that they have no intention or desire to act out. If I was making plans to commit genocide, or something, that would be immoral - it’s not like you’re morally neutral right up until the event. But if I have no intention, or even any desire, to do evil, I don’t see how thinking about it is evil. > [@](#): > > This is a good point. I agree that we can’t completely control our thoughts and fantasies. However, I would also argue that we should be able to know whether or not our thoughts are immoral. In your examples, I would not consider someone who had evil thoughts, but recognized that they _were_ evil and something that they should fight against, to be immoral. However, I would regard someone who recoginzed their desires were evil, but continued to enjoy and encourage such desires, as immoral, even if they didn’t act on them. Someone who _didn’t_ think their thoughts of rape and murder were evil - that’s a question for a psychiatrist rather than a moralist, IMO. What if I recognize that my thoughts about rape are thoughts about _an evil activity_, and in real life I have no desire to see it happen, though? You haven’t addressed this yet (and admittedly I’ve been doing a lot of question-posing, so I can see it might have been lost in the shuffle) but that’s the central issue when we’re talking about someone with rape fantasies. I think there’s a meaningful separation between fantasy and reality, and that I can fantasize about something that I (1) would never like to see/experience and (2) would certainly never consider doing, since both I wouldn’t enjoy it in real life and I think it’s immoral. A lot of people have fantasies about rape - I’ve made a logical case in this thread for the difference between rape fantasy and reality on the part of the person who fantasizes about it. But the people who fantasize about committing rape also understand it as only a fantasy and simply would not want to do it in real life. **Evil Captor** has no desire to actually have sex with an unwilling participant - it’s something hot _only in fantasy_, since you can ignore the realistic aspects of hurting someone very badly in fantasy. In the real world, most of us find the thought of rape repugnant, and those who have sexual fantasies about it are the same way. It’s something _only_ hot in fantasy, not in reality. I mean, for a possibly stretched comparison, I’m a fan of _Buffy: The Vampire Slayer_. I’ve had (non-sexual, duh) fantasies about living that sort of exciting life - who doesn’t want to be all-important and lead a life of never-ending adventure? More realistically, her life is pretty miserable most of the time. I understand that I would not enjoy actually being Buffy and slaying vampires - that it’d be a lot more frightening and sad than fun, and I have no desire to be in that kind of danger - but at the same time, it’s fun to fantasize about. It’s another example of something I can enjoy in fantasy while fully cognizant of the fact that were it possible to make it real, I wouldn’t enjoy at all. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > I recognize that there are some fantasies that no amount of discussion will ever lead to a safe way of being realied – pedophilia, tired old rag that it is, qualifies here simply because children cannot give informed consent to sex, so any sex with kids is rape. But even if discussion does not lead to realization of fantasies, if it leads to better understanding and a better social response to the fantasy, that’s a good thing, too. > > Therefore, as a general rule, I think there are very few if any fantasies left unvoiced. Let there be light, and beyond that, understanding. But what about people with considerably more deviant fantasies? Going back to the above examples about raping and murdering children, divulging that you fantasize about that, even if you like it only in your imagination, is never going to be socially acceptable. Do you think that it should be? Should people (outside of whatever crowd enjoys the fantasies) discuss that, and accept it? I don’t think those fantasies are particularly immoral either, but realistically they can’t be expressed, and I’m not sure they’re not something better kept private anyway. These fantasies are not uncommon, either. There’s plenty of erotic fiction on asstr dot org devoted to pretty horrifying themes. Simply realistically, there must be a _lot_ of people interesting in thinking about these things but not doing them - else, there would be a lot more murder/pedophilia/attempts to create real life centaur sex slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/43 "2005-11-19T23:21:46Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > I didn’t intend to suggest that thoughts carry equal moral weight to actions, only that if the immorality of one’s thoughts is relevant, then the morality of one’s thoughts should be relevant too. Surely that’s a reasonable conclusion? So far the thread has focused solely on whether bondage fantasies are immoral, regardless of whether they’re acted on. But it should be equally possible to come to a conclusion by considering whether fantasizing about moral acts is itself moral, right? > > I’m fantasizing about rescuing someone from a burning building right now. Does this thought have any moral significance or not? Yes, of course, especially if you rely on it if you actually _do_ rescue someone from a burning building. Thinking along the lines of “What would I do if I were faced with this particular moral dilemma?” is something that I would encourage, and I accept that fantasies can be moral as well as immoral. I’m sorry if I interpreted your message as _less_ serious than it was intended to be - a very rare occurrence on the Internet. 😉 And, I’ll repeat my view that bondage fantasies aren’t immoral. I enjoy them myself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/44 "2005-11-19T23:27:58Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > If I was making plans to commit genocide, or something, that would be immoral - it’s not like you’re morally neutral right up until the event. But if I have no intention, or even any desire, to do evil, I don’t see how thinking about it is evil. I would agree with that 100%. There’s a distinction to be made between _thinking_ about evil, and _wanting_ to commit evil acts; would you regard a desire to do evil _as_ evil? If so, we’re in agreement. > [@](#): > > attempts to create real life centaur sex slaves. Something I would whole-heartedly support. Provided that they wanted to be sex slaves, of course. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/45 "2005-11-19T23:36:51Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > Yes, basically. Certainly on the “political” point, although I would use the word “ethical” or “philosophical” rather than “evil” in your second example. “Moral”, in my opinion, is a way of describing the degree of compliance of a thought or an action with “moral standards”. The _definition_ of these moral standards is one of the most fundamental problems of philosophy, and everyone will have their own answer to the question “Is this moral?”. However, I still feel that the question can be asked of thoughts, as well as actions. Oh come on that’s just semantics. All you’re saying then is that deviant thoughts are correctly described as immoral because their content is immoral, but not because it’s immoral to think about them. If I think about the color orange then my thoughts are orange and so am I? What kind of logic is that? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/46 "2005-11-19T23:42:31Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > [ul] > [li]I’m uncomfortable being called out in a GD thread. A GD thread should be a debate about an idea, not a referendum on the position of any particular Doper. Not to play junior mod, but it’s my understanding that such a thing is frowned upon.[/li][li]\*\*Tevildo \*\*and **CS Lewis** have made most of the points I would have made if I had chosen, rather than been challenged, to participate in this thread.[/li][/ul] I think it was more of an invitation than a challenge. That happens a lot in GD, from what I’ve seen. There is a rule against trying to get two other posters to fight in the Pit, which I think you might be thinking of. At any rate, I don’t think anyone was demanding that you defend yourself, only that you had an opinion on the subject, and might be interested in discusing it. If you’re not, that’s cool. I’ll assume that means I win. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/47 "2005-11-19T23:49:32Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Oh come on that’s just semantics. All you’re saying then is that deviant thoughts are correctly described as immoral because their content is immoral, but not because it’s immoral to think about them. > > If I think about the color orange then my thoughts are orange and so am I? What kind of logic is that? I’m not sure what you mean. I would say “Deviant thoughts are correctly described as immoral because it’s immoral to think them”. I know it’s tautological, but the essential point is my removal of the word “about” from your sentence. I don’t believe that it’s immoral to think _about_ evil. I _do_ believe that it’s immoral to think about _doing_ evil, and enjoying or affirming those thoughts. If you’re thinking about _being_ orange, about how much enjoyment you would gain from drinking nothing but carrot juice for a month, then, yes, your thoughts are “orange”, or perhaps “orangophilic”, and you are rightly characterized as an “orange-lover”. 🙂 But if you’re only thinking about orange itself, hating and rejecting it in favour of the Divine Purple, then you’re in the clear. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/48 "2005-11-19T23:50:03Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > I would agree with that 100%. There’s a distinction to be made between _thinking_ about evil, and _wanting_ to commit evil acts; would you regard a desire to do evil _as_ evil? If so, we’re in agreement. So say we’re discussing Deviant Dean. Deviant Dean jerks off and thinks about strangling baby ducks while he rapes them. Deviant Dean has _zero_ desire to do it in real life, _zero_ intention, but he enjoys masturbating while imagining it. Immoral or no? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/49 "2005-11-19T23:54:54Z")
I’d agree that an unshared fantasy might be morally nuetral, provided that the fantasizer doesn’t judge themselves. But I think that any fantasy which becomes known to others tends to be judged by other’s (or possibly just the prevailing community’s) moral standards. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/50 "2005-11-20T00:00:57Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > I don’t believe that it’s immoral to think _about_ evil. I _do_ believe that it’s immoral to think about _doing_ evil, and enjoying or affirming those thoughts. OK, but then you’re saying that thoughts are immoral because thinking about them (in a certain way anyway) is an immoral _act_. Earlier you said they’re not an act they just _are_ immoral because their content meets (or rather doesn’t meet) certain standards. So, if I get you right, thinking about immoral acts with pleasure is immoral. And so I ask again - why? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/51 "2005-11-20T00:03:32Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > So say we’re discussing Deviant Dean. Deviant Dean jerks off and thinks about strangling baby ducks while he rapes them. Deviant Dean has _zero_ desire to do it in real life, _zero_ intention, but he enjoys masturbating while imagining it. Immoral or no? That depends: could Dean’s fantasizing develop into a desire to do it in real life? A thought experiment: What if I were to take an act that I currently have no desire to do, or even to think about (say, rape, or sex with children, or sex with animals, or whatever) and deliberately fantasize about it every night for the next couple of weeks. I make my fantasy as appealing and erotic and attractive to myself as possible. At the end of the two weeks, will I be more likely than I was before to actually do the act in question than I was before the two weeks? What if it was an act that I _did_ start out with some desire to do: Would my fantasizing feed that desire, or would it provide a safe outlet for it. A related question: what about “child porn” in which no actual children are involved—say, text descriptions or cartoons or CGI or whatever: should it be made illegal and/or considered morally repugnant? I don’t see how an answer of “yes” could be consistent with a belief that fantasies are morally neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/52 "2005-11-20T00:08:03Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > So say we’re discussing Deviant Dean. Deviant Dean jerks off and thinks about strangling baby ducks while he rapes them. Deviant Dean has _zero_ desire to do it in real life, _zero_ intention, but he enjoys masturbating while imagining it. Immoral or no? If those “zeros” are accurate, if Dean is, in real life, a paid-up member of PETA, then, yes, I accept it’s not immoral. However, I find it hard to imagine someone finding pleasure in something that they consider morally repugnant. I would say that, if Dean felt that he’d _enjoy_ raping baby ducks, but wasn’t prepared to do it because it was illegal (and I hope it _is_ illegal), then his fantasies would still be immoral, and he would be doing the wrong thing in enjoying them. If he hated his fantasies, but felt compelled to indulge in them anyway, I would advise him to seek professional help; I wouldn’t regard him as immoral in that situation, just - sick, in a non-judgemental sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/53 "2005-11-20T00:10:38Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > A related question: what about “child porn” in which no actual children are involved—say, text descriptions or cartoons or CGI or whatever: should it be made illegal and/or considered morally repugnant? I don’t see how an answer of “yes” could be consistent with a belief that fantasies are morally neutral. Considered morally repugnant, yes. Illegal, no. I regard freedom of speech as one of the most important civil liberties, even if it means that people are allowed to say and draw things that I personally find offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/54 "2005-11-20T00:14:14Z")
I dunno. Ascribing morality to fantasies seems like an exercise in pointlessness to me, frankly. Fantasies don’t affect reality unless acted out; it seems to me, then, that the “morality” of such fantasies is similarly unreal. Ascribing morality to an imaginary act would seem to be akin in some sense to considering the physical properties of an imaginary object. Yes, on paper you can make very accurate predictions of how a given mass might behave under certain conditions, just as you can evaluate the morality of an actual event by envisioning it mentally. But to say that the fantasy itself is intrinsically moral or immoral is like saying that an imaginary mountain sitting on your head actually makes you heavier. And if one does wish to go to all the effort of linking moral value to hypothetical situations, how much weight should they carry compared to real situations? If it’s infinitesimally small, then what’s the point of bringing the subject up at all? On the other hand, if the value is even remotely comparable, then how much fantasy morality should equal real-life morality? How many imaginary rapes can you commit before you become less moral than a person who commits one actual rape? A hundred? A thousand? If I give eighty billion imaginary dollars to feed imaginary big-eyed starving orphans, am I more or less moral than a person who gives ten real dollars to feed one hungry person? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/55 "2005-11-20T00:19:37Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > If those “zeros” are accurate, if Dean is, in real life, a paid-up member of PETA, then, yes, I accept it’s not immoral. However, I find it hard to imagine someone finding pleasure in something that they consider morally repugnant. I would say that, if Dean felt that he’d _enjoy_ raping baby ducks, but wasn’t prepared to do it because it was illegal (and I hope it _is_ illegal), then his fantasies would still be immoral, and he would be doing the wrong thing in enjoying them. If he hated his fantasies, but felt compelled to indulge in them anyway, I would advise him to seek professional help; I wouldn’t regard him as immoral in that situation, just - sick, in a non-judgemental sense of the word. Hmm. How would you define the moral nature of the following? For a couple years, a few of my friends and I were engaged in a Dungeons and Dragons campaign where we all played evil characters. We murdered, robbed, tortured, sold drugs, traded slaves, and so forth. There was, so far as I know, no masturbation involved, but everyone who played had a great time, and we delighted in topping each other for some particularly vile or depraved act in the game. Needless to say, none of us ever went out and engaged in any of these activities. It was a game, we recognized that the stuff we were doing in this fantasy world was reprehensible, but it was still a lot of fun to pretend to be a pack of arch-villains. When we got together on a weekend to play, were we committing an immoral act? > [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > A related question: what about “child porn” in which no actual children are involved—say, text descriptions or cartoons or CGI or whatever: should it be made illegal and/or considered morally repugnant? I don’t see how an answer of “yes” could be consistent with a belief that fantasies are morally neutral. You’re right, an answer of “yes” would be absolutely inconsistent with that stance. Which is why my answer is “no, they should not be illegal.” But then, I’m very much the free speech absolutist. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/56 "2005-11-20T00:24:05Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Fantasies don’t affect reality unless acted out; it seems to me, then, that the “morality” of such fantasies is similarly unreal. Nobody yet has raised the spectre of Utilititarianism, but I think it’s been close to the surface for some time. It seems to me as though several participants in this debate regard “right” and “wrong” as something that can be objectively assessed based on the _outcomes_ of a particular moral decision. **Miller** has already raised the objection to the Kantian view of morality, and I would be quite happy to reherse the standard arguments against the Benthamite view of it. However, that’s not to say it’s _invalid_ - just to point out that it’s by no means a universal view of the general philosophic issue. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/57 "2005-11-20T00:34:06Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > If those “zeros” are accurate, if Dean is, in real life, a paid-up member of PETA, then, yes, I accept it’s not immoral. However, I find it hard to imagine someone finding pleasure in something that they consider morally repugnant. I would say that, if Dean felt that he’d _enjoy_ raping baby ducks, but wasn’t prepared to do it because it was illegal (and I hope it _is_ illegal), then his fantasies would still be immoral, and he would be doing the wrong thing in enjoying them. If he hated his fantasies, but felt compelled to indulge in them anyway, I would advise him to seek professional help; I wouldn’t regard him as immoral in that situation, just - sick, in a non-judgemental sense of the word. People _do_ find pleasure in things they find morally repugnant and wouldn’t enjoy is the thing. I’m not sure how one could _prove_ that fact, but it’s true that there’s a lot of people who fantasize about things they don’t want to do. Fantasizing about being raped is my logical example; I’ve been pointing this out - it’s logically impossible to _want_ to be raped, but lots of people fantasize about it. That doesn’t mean they want to be raped in real life, since that’s contradictory. So your dividing line is that it’s okay to fantasize about something you _wouldn’t_ want to do in real life. It’s not okay to fantasize about something you _would_ want to do but don’t because you’re scared of the legal consequences. I would agree that if the only thing stopping you from committing rape is fear of the law, you’re not a good person. I don’t think our views are really substantially different here. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/58 "2005-11-20T00:36:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hmm. How would you define the moral nature of the following? > > For a couple years, a few of my friends and I were engaged in a Dungeons and Dragons campaign where we all played evil characters. We murdered, robbed, tortured, sold drugs, traded slaves, and so forth. There was, so far as I know, no masturbation involved, but everyone who played had a great time, and we delighted in topping each other for some particularly vile or depraved act in the game. Needless to say, none of us ever went out and engaged in any of these activities. It was a game, we recognized that the stuff we were doing in this fantasy world was reprehensible, but it was still a lot of fun to pretend to be a pack of arch-villains. When we got together on a weekend to play, were we committing an immoral act? But Dungeons & Dragons ™ was created by _ **SATAN** _\*!!! So, yes, you were immoral and Hell-bound even if you’d played good characters. 😉 More seriously. If it’s true that you recognized your fantasy actions were reprehensible (and I have no doubt that you did), and if you enjoyed your weekends because you were having fun with your friends, rather than because you were having fantasies about murder, rape, and pillage, then, yes, you weren’t being immoral. There was an earlier post about people who enjoy slasher movies; this is something similar. IMO, enjoying and participating in _depictions_ of evil is something different than _desiring_ to be evil. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/59 "2005-11-20T00:36:21Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > …If he hated his fantasies, but felt compelled to indulge in them anyway, I would advise him to seek professional help… Again, AFAIK their is no way to get rid of sexual fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799/60 "2005-11-20T00:46:44Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > Again, AFAIK their is no way to get rid of sexual fantasies. Cognitive behavioral therapy has been known to get rid of lots of people’s unwanted thoughts, including those of a sexual nature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asserted-a-fantasy-even-a-disgusting-one-is-morally-neutral/331799.md?page=4)