# Assessing the progress of the #MeToo movement **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571 "2020-02-26T19:22:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/41 "2020-03-11T14:53:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have not seen this is my environment. There are \*\*wbrly \*\*of women interns and managers. [bolding mine] 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/42 "2020-03-11T14:58:38Z")
Fat fingers small phone autocorrect malfunction ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/43 "2020-03-11T15:28:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > There were articles like [THIS ONE](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/10/04/metoo-movement-unintended-career-consequences-women/1503516002/)which says many men in management positions are now unlikely to bring on a female intern or help a woman wanting to work her way up in the company. And men in management like that should be gotten rid of. And replaced with women. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/44 "2020-03-11T15:31:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know how this case should have been judged. I think some of what the judge said was inappropriate. What specifically did the judge say that was inappropriate? Was it the part where he mentioned that the three accusers lied under oath raises reasonable doubt? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I think this is intimately tied to the broader societal issues of how women and girls are treated. The difference between “sluts” and “good girls” (or other slurs and euphemisms) is continuously hammered home into the skulls of women and girls. “Good girls” don’t get raped or assaulted. It must be their fault. If it’s their fault, then the man did nothing wrong… and if he’s angry, and especially if he has power and influence, they better get back into his good graces. So they might be nice to him later, or even have sex with him. Because that’s one of the things society signals they should do. Could you mention a few examples of society telling women they should have sex with their rapists later? TIA. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/45 "2020-03-11T16:15:53Z")
Ignoring the first question due to the obvious attempt at well-poisoning. > [@Shodan](#): > > Could you mention a few examples of society telling women they should have sex with their rapists later? TIA. Sure: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “Marry-your-rapist” laws, in multiple countries in every continent around the world (many have been repealed in the last few years, but many still remain). These are examples of society insisting a rape victim have sex with their rapist _even when it is acknowledged as rape_. There are countless more examples of rape victims being encouraged to have sex with their rapist due to broad societal gaslighting that tries to convince these women _that they were not raped_ – i.e. the legality of marital rape; junior employees encouraged to go along with the wishes of supervisors/management (this includes domestic employees, for whom rape and sexual assault can be near daily hazards); the complete lack of protection for sex workers who also face near-daily hazards of rape and sexual assault; and the countless other examples that don’t fit a single-sentence scenario, but nonetheless add up to “you weren’t really raped – you probably wanted it, and if you want people to like you, you’ll let them do it again”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/46 "2020-03-11T16:33:15Z")
Are you sure you’re not ignoring the first question because you don’t have an answer? And I thought from the title of the thread that you would understand that I was talking about society in, say, the last fifty years. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/47 "2020-03-11T16:37:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And I thought from the title of the thread that you would understand that I was talking about society in, say, the last fifty years. I am too! In my understanding, lots of people still read the Bible and consider it influential in their lives and culture. And many of those laws are either still in effect or were only very recently repealed. And all the other stuff applies to modern society as well. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/48 "2020-03-11T16:40:05Z")
Anytime society protects a woman’s rapist and lets him retain his position and authority, society is telling her that she must compromise with him. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/49 "2020-03-11T16:59:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’ll give you an example in which things have already changed. A few years ago, the Conservative government here passed minimum-sentencing laws governing certain offenses, many of them of a sexual nature. This meant that if, say, you patted a woman’s behind (entirely not appropriate, to be sure) you could be charged with sexual assault. If she didn’t like you and pressed charges, you could be convicted and the judge would have no option but to sentence you to at least the minimum, which would have been something like at least a year in jail. Furthermore, upon release you would have a criminal record and also have to register as a sex offender in the national registry. And then, given that record, you’d probably be fired and permanently unemployable. Now, some might celebrate all this as appropriate, but rationally, does the punishment fit the crime? Would society not be better served by sending this person – who I would call a boor and horndog rather than a criminal – to a week or two of resident behavioral therapy? I’m not much of a fan of mandatory minimum sentences for anything, but I want to explore the comment that a man who “pats a woman on the ass” is not a criminal, just a boor. Where is your line? If he pinches her hard enough to bruise? If he strokes, more than pats? If he “gooses” her deeper than what we generally think of as “ass”? Are those assault? I have never known a woman who got patted on the butt by a strange man. I have known plenty that had the the other things happen. I think the “patted on the butt” is like the guy who exposes himself to a kid or a woman in the park and then tells everyone he was just taking a leak and the system over-reacted. On this very board at one point we were talking about “pinching” and there was some dude who swore pinching a girl’s butt wasn’t bad because when they pinched their own arm, it didn’t seem to hurt–they apparently didn’t understand why that didn’t make sense. Part of rape culture is that sexual assault is presented in the most innocuous terms–“pat”–and the victim is presented as overreacting. It’s like when someone insults you, and then you tell them to stop, and they accuse you of having no sense of humor–a double insult. What, in your mind, is the line between social misstep, boorish behavior, and what is assault? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/50 "2020-03-11T17:06:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I am too! In my understanding, lots of people still read the Bible and consider it influential in their lives and culture. And many of those laws are either still in effect or were only very recently repealed. And all the other stuff applies to modern society as well. Then by all means, cite the places where society, based on the Deuteronomy passage, encourages women to marry or have sex with their rapists. As well as the time that the law saying women should marry or have sex with their rapists was repealed. In case it isn’t clear, I am talking about places like the US, Canada, Europe - the West in general. If you want to talk about Saudi Arabia or Yemen or places like that, I don’t #Metoo has had much effect there, so I don’t think that’s particularly relevant. Also still interested in what you think the judge said that was inappropriate. Is it slut-shaming to point out when women are lying about accusations of sexual assault? Or do you think the legal process should be changed so that some witness testimony is not subject to impeachment? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/51 "2020-03-11T17:25:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then by all means, cite the places where society, based on the Deuteronomy passage, encourages women to marry or have sex with their rapists. As well as the time that the law saying women should marry or have sex with their rapists was repealed. > > In case it isn’t clear, I am talking about places like the US, Canada, Europe - the West in general. If you want to talk about Saudi Arabia or Yemen or places like that, I don’t #Metoo has had much effect there, so I don’t think that’s particularly relevant. I gave several examples that take place within US culture (and other Western cultures). Most aren’t terribly cut and dry. But this discussion has been had again and again, on this board and elsewhere. If you’re really interested in learning about the topic, I recommend starting with the following: > **[Rape culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture)** > > Rape culture is a setting, as described by some sociological theories, in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to that setting's attitudes about gender and sexuality. Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, slut-shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by sexual violence, or some combination of these. It has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups The notio... > **[Patriarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy)** > > Patriarchy is a social system in which positions of dominance and privilege are held by men. The term patriarchy is used both in anthropology to describe a family or clan controlled by the father or eldest male or group of males, and in feminist theory to describe a broader social structure in which men as a group dominate women and children. > Patriarchal ideology acts to explain and justify patriarchy by attributing gender inequality to inherent natural differences between men and women, divine... > **[Misogyny and mass media](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_and_mass_media)** > > Examples of misogyny exist in many published forms, within multiple cultures and well-observed works. Technological advances in the modern era have contributed proficient means to media and marketing to the resultant mass media in the 21st century. The merging of misogyny and mass media has made numerous examples where studies have concluded correlations between misogynous messages, both obvious and subliminal. Corresponding physical appearance of violence and hateful conduct may be seen r Messa... I’ll note that this goes far, far beyond politics. Every aspect of our culture is influenced and even tainted by this. The entertainment industry is a notable example – just as notable as organized religion – but this shit is everywhere. Hopefully things are changing, but we have a long, long way to go. On the other hand, if you’re perfectly content with how society treats women and girls, then I doubt you’ll find any of this stuff interesting or persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/52 "2020-03-11T18:47:24Z")
No, actually you haven’t come up with any examples of what you claimed. Just the opposite, in fact - the accusers in the Ghomeshi case did what you claim society was pushing them to do (and lied about it). It didn’t work out for them. Thanks for the links. If you have any that actually prove your assertion, feel free. Or again, if you want to explain why it’s inappropriate for a judge to point out that witnesses are lying, or that the presumption of innocence shouldn’t apply in a court of law, or that society tells sex workers they should try to use their rapists as repeat clients, that too. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/53 "2020-03-11T18:52:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, actually you haven’t come up with any examples of what you claimed. Just the opposite, in fact - the accusers in the Ghomeshi case did what you claim society was pushing them to do (and lied about it). It didn’t work out for them. > > Thanks for the links. If you have any that actually prove your assertion, feel free. > > Or again, if you want to explain why it’s inappropriate for a judge to point out that witnesses are lying, or that the presumption of innocence shouldn’t apply in a court of law, or that society tells sex workers they should try to use their rapists as repeat clients, that too. > > Regards, > Shodan I can’t tell what you’re actually responding to. You don’t quote any post or refer directly to what you’re disputing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/54 "2020-03-11T19:49:54Z")
You need a new shtick. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/55 "2020-03-11T19:58:30Z")
I’ll be here if you want to discuss this! I think it’s a really important issue, and thankfully so do lots of other folks. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/56 "2020-03-12T00:40:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > What, in your mind, is the line between social misstep, boorish behavior, and what is assault? I don’t have a lot of time right now as real life intrudes, so I just wanted to give a quick acknowledgement of your good question and a brief response. I may have more to say later. I thought I was done here, but apparently not. **Manda Jo** , it’s a question that’s virtually impossible to answer as it depends on so many factors – the culture, not just within the world but within regions of the country and within individual companies, the historical timeframe, the detailed circumstances, the relationship between the individuals, and many other things. In general I’d say that _ **none** _ of the things you describe should be normally acceptable anywhere. In a workplace environment, the proper recourse would be for the victim to take it to HR, who could make a decision about how to deal with the offender, ranging from mandatory training as I mentioned to disciplinary action including firing to calling the authorities if warranted. But if I was an HR manager I would consider involving the police to be a last resort precisely because of the reasons I talked about before: the wording of the law in some jurisdictions often makes little distinction between the three, and even in Canada where the general trends are toward leniency and rehabilitation, before the Supreme Court ruling not only was there little distinction, but neither the prosecutor in a plea bargain nor the judge had much discretion in making a distinction between, say, being a boor and being a sexual assaulter. My ex-wife happened to be an exceptionally good-looking woman (and still is, even as we both age, and remain good friends) and was constantly being hit on. But she was and is strong-willed and knew how to handle herself. If she was at a bar and a horndog offered to buy her a drink, she would politely decline. If he insisted and became cloying, she might take the drink and throw it in his face. I don’t understand the implication in some of this thread that women don’t have agency. They do. They have agency to ignore the boor, to punch the boor in the face, to call the police, or to leave a bad relationship. In a workplace environment where the boss is the harasser, in any enlightened company HR will be sympathetic and cooperative, and many large companies have external arbiters as well. If none of those things are true where she works, that’s a good reason to leave. I am NOT saying that the problems of sexual harassment of women has gone away, though #MeToo has gone long way towards fixing it. But I disagree that it’s a social crisis that requires some kind of major social revolution to fix, rather than careful and thoughtful incremental improvements in social mores and, if necessary, in our laws. I was recently reading an article about unjust accusations and my Google-fu is absolutely failing to find it, which is unfortunate because some of it was literally unbelievable. One story involved a male teenager who was babysitting some kids. When the mother came home, she said she had been having car trouble involving the engine. She popped the hood and both were peering around inside when the teen accidentally touched her breast. Being apparently of the #MeToo mindset, she immediately reported it to the police. I don’t remember exactly what came of it, but I’m pretty sure the police declined to lay charges. As a final note in this brief post, I note that **iiandyiiii** still has now answered the question about what the judge did wrong in the Ghomeshi case, other than that he didn’t agree with the verdict. I thought the judge was to be commended for strictly following the rule of law and ignoring the social pressures and the rantings of the mob outside. I hate to think of the kind of dystopian future we would have if the kind of social revolution **iiandyiiii** wishes for comes to pass, with all of its unintended conseqences – a world where justice for males falls by the wayside, where every woman must be considered to be surrounded by an imaginary five-foot circle of protection which no man must breach, and where every woman must be regarded as a potential landmine who, with just a few words, can put a man in jail for the rest of his life. A world where the wise prerequisite to any sexual act is a signed affidavit of consent, and perhaps verified by a sound recording of the proceedings. Yes, yes, I acknowledge there has been a big problem that #MeToo has helped address in a big way, but is this the kind of dystopian world, devoid of due process, that we want to live in? #MeToo aside, society, at least in America, has long had a strangely irrational attitude toward sex that is helping to propel that movement. Consider, for instance, this article from Human Rights Watch: _[Raised on the Registry](https://www.hrw.org/report/2013/05/01/raised-registry/irreparable-harm-placing-children-sex-offender-registries-us)_, subtitled “The Irreparable Harm of Placing Children on Sex Offender Registries in the US”. This mindset is the other side of the coin that we’re dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/57 "2020-03-12T03:05:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > But what that kind of story would make me think is that the men who are discriminating against women for fear of being accused of harassment are probably the ones who have been harassing people. They shouldn’t be allowed to get away with discrimination with metoo as an excuse. There’s some truth to that but sometimes people have irrational fears even if they haven’t done anything wrong. Do remember that some people have been crying “witch hunt” and that can lead to nervousness and uncertainty. Overall, I’m happy #metoo exists but this is an unfortunate side effect nobody saw coming and it’s something companies really need to work on. I haven’t experienced this problem at work, yet, but we’re odd in that almost 3/4ths of our employees are women and many of them are management and executives. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/58 "2020-03-12T03:26:12Z")
I suspect this will work like the Black Lives Matter movement. No one anywhere will accept any culpability, yet magically out of nowhere things will improve. For how long depends on the heat those responsible have on them. Perhaps that’s ok. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/59 "2020-03-12T07:19:16Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > On the high school level, I think the attitude toward girls and sexual harrassment has changed dramatically, and for the better. It’s not like it’s gone, but administration takes things seriously that they (and, honestly, I) would have blown off as “stupid boys being gross” ten years ago. The girls and the boys feel much more empowered to speak up and to acknowledge that it’s not just a little uncouth to sexually harass girls, it’s actually wrong. I also think the boys are much more reflective about their own behavior than was the norm ten years ago. > > THAT SAID, we still have problems, and as I am in a school with no sports, and hence no jock culture, I know my sample is skewed. I’m really heartened to read that things have improved in your school, even if, as you say, there’s still progress to be made. I wish that level of progress were happening everywhere. I know from my colleagues in my old school district that girls’ complaints of sexual harassment are still not taken seriously, and few girls dare to speak up. I’d say Wyoming is an outlier, but there’s [this](https://www.deseret.com/2019/1/18/20663674/sexual-harassment-happens-in-elementary-middle-and-high-schools-but-not-much-is-being-done-about-it#education-secretary-betsy-devos-listens-during-her-introduction-to-speak-about-campus-sexual-assault-and-enforcement-of-title-ix-the-federal-law-that-bars-discrimination-in-education-on-the-basis-of-gender-thursday-sept-7-2017-at-george-mason-university-in-arlington-va). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assessing-the-progress-of-the-metoo-movement/848571/60 "2020-03-12T08:43:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I don’t have a lot of time right now as real life intrudes, so I just wanted to give a quick acknowledgement of your good question and a brief response. I may have more to say later. I thought I was done here, but apparently not. > > **Manda Jo** , it’s a question that’s virtually impossible to answer as it depends on so many factors – the culture, not just within the world but within regions of the country and within individual companies, the historical timeframe, the detailed circumstances, the relationship between the individuals, and many other things. In general I’d say that _ **none** _ of the things you describe should be normally acceptable anywhere. In a workplace environment, the proper recourse would be for the victim to take it to HR, who could make a decision about how to deal with the offender, ranging from mandatory training as I mentioned to disciplinary action including firing to calling the authorities if warranted. But if I was an HR manager I would consider involving the police to be a last resort precisely because of the reasons I talked about before: the wording of the law in some jurisdictions often makes little distinction between the three, and even in Canada where the general trends are toward leniency and rehabilitation, before the Supreme Court ruling not only was there little distinction, but neither the prosecutor in a plea bargain nor the judge had much discretion in making a distinction between, say, being a boor and being a sexual assaulter. > > My ex-wife happened to be an exceptionally good-looking woman (and still is, even as we both age, and remain good friends) and was constantly being hit on. But she was and is strong-willed and knew how to handle herself. If she was at a bar and a horndog offered to buy her a drink, she would politely decline. If he insisted and became cloying, she might take the drink and throw it in his face. I don’t understand the implication in some of this thread that women don’t have agency. They do. They have agency to ignore the boor, to punch the boor in the face, to call the police, or to leave a bad relationship. In a workplace environment where the boss is the harasser, in any enlightened company HR will be sympathetic and cooperative, and many large companies have external arbiters as well. If none of those things are true where she works, that’s a good reason to leave. I am NOT saying that the problems of sexual harassment of women has gone away, though #MeToo has gone long way towards fixing it. But I disagree that it’s a social crisis that requires some kind of major social revolution to fix, rather than careful and thoughtful incremental improvements in social mores and, if necessary, in our laws. > > I was recently reading an article about unjust accusations and my Google-fu is absolutely failing to find it, which is unfortunate because some of it was literally unbelievable. One story involved a male teenager who was babysitting some kids. When the mother came home, she said she had been having car trouble involving the engine. She popped the hood and both were peering around inside when the teen accidentally touched her breast. Being apparently of the #MeToo mindset, she immediately reported it to the police. I don’t remember exactly what came of it, but I’m pretty sure the police declined to lay charges. > > As a final note in this brief post, I note that **iiandyiiii** still has now answered the question about what the judge did wrong in the Ghomeshi case, other than that he didn’t agree with the verdict. I thought the judge was to be commended for strictly following the rule of law and ignoring the social pressures and the rantings of the mob outside. I hate to think of the kind of dystopian future we would have if the kind of social revolution **iiandyiiii** wishes for comes to pass, with all of its unintended conseqences – a world where justice for males falls by the wayside, where every woman must be considered to be surrounded by an imaginary five-foot circle of protection which no man must breach, and where every woman must be regarded as a potential landmine who, with just a few words, can put a man in jail for the rest of his life. A world where the wise prerequisite to any sexual act is a signed affidavit of consent, and perhaps verified by a sound recording of the proceedings. Yes, yes, I acknowledge there has been a big problem that #MeToo has helped address in a big way, but is this the kind of dystopian world, devoid of due process, that we want to live in? > > #MeToo aside, society, at least in America, has long had a strangely irrational attitude toward sex that is helping to propel that movement. Consider, for instance, this article from Human Rights Watch: _[Raised on the Registry](https://www.hrw.org/report/2013/05/01/raised-registry/irreparable-harm-placing-children-sex-offender-registries-us)_, subtitled “The Irreparable Harm of Placing Children on Sex Offender Registries in the US”. This mindset is the other side of the coin that we’re dealing with. I haven’t said any of this. I didn’t characterize the verdict in the Ghomeshi case - I said that some of what the judge said deserved criticism (insisting women were dishonest when it easily could have been accidental omissions, as well as the apparent lack of understanding in how people sometimes respond to trauma in this gaslighting rape culture). What I disagree with most strongly is your trust in the justice system (and presumably other institutions), who have failed women and girls, and shown they don’t understand, again and again. And I see no reason to believe that that case is any different. I have absolutely no fear of interacting with women, and no desire for an “imaginary five foot circle around women”. I have no interest in a lack of justice for men. I have no idea where you’re getting this stuff from, unless it’s the preposterous fears of “red pill” or “men’s rights” advocates. 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