Assholes with guns in my 'hood

[elucidator]

@artemis

… And education’s going to have to play the major role, as it’s impossible to use force to change hearts.

Alas, no. You can very effectively harden and darken a heart with force. Pretty easy, actually. Which is why I’m going to need a lot of help.

Plus, my strong suits are bitching, bellyaching, snarking and sneering. A leader’s got to have that sincerity, or be able to fake it effectively. I suck at “sincere”. Too many for me, I fold.

[Uber_the_Goober]

@Una_Persson

<snip>

In short, I propose “register the owner, not the gun” and “restrict, reduce, but do not ban.”

Thus far, no anti-gun or pro-gun person on my board thinks my system is good, which probably means it sucks…well, it’s an idea, what can I say?

<snip>

Meh - I agree with you. It’s as good of a system as any I’ve seen bandied about - and by far better than my hypothetical “Let the gubbmint come seize all the guns”. And I’m not anti-gun entirely, but certainly not pro-gun in the common usage of the word.

[Peremensoe]

@Harborwolf

I get that open carry is legal. I’m just not sure it’s a good idea. Our most recent spree killings have been committed by people who could have owned or did own the guns legally. They were perfectly fine right up until the moment they started shooting other people. Now we have people trying to make it acceptable to carry weapons openly? Seriously?

It honestly blows my mind. We won’t be able to tell the good guys with guns from the bad guys with guns until they start shooting.

How is any of this changed by open carry versus concealed?

[SirGalahad]

@Una_Persson

One might level such at me; I used to be a real nasty bitch to people on here who didn’t deserve it, back when I was sick.

I did modify my views on gun rights and ownership over time. When I first started debating it on here 12 years ago my stance was “no new laws, loosen existing ones.” But several things have modified my stance:

1. In the endless Sisyphean debates which have rampaged back and forth across this message boards, there has been that occasional 1 in 1,000 pro-gun-control posts which made me think. Not many, but given there have been surely tens of thousands of such, I’ve nonetheless had ample material to consider.

2. I’ve grown older. I’ve been on this message board an incredible 45% of my adult life (starting counting from age 18). A lot happened to me in 12 years. Time passes, seasons change, and so do people. I’ve had in my life an accumulated experience which is very large, of people abusing and misusing guns, having accidents with guns, and generally being dangerous, unstable assholes with them. I’ve also seen far too many people who are so mentally unstable they should never, ever, be allowed a knife, let alone a gun - but because they are undiagnosed and not “in the system,” these loons can go and buy anything they want which is legally available.

And to be blunt, some of them really scare me.

3. I went through a major life change this last year which changed me. It changed my thought processes as well, washed away 30+ years of horrible depression, and made every day the best doggone day of my life. I don’t approach debates with a “must destroy idiot fucktard” attitude, I want to listen more, and sit and think, and appreciate the argument. I don’t get angry any more, or only very rarely. I don’t drink any more. I love life and I think everything is absolutely awesome, and so I try to listen more to people, or else politely tune them out if they insist on being rude.

I proposed on my board a system of owner licensing (not gun registration) which was 4-tiered and which would be guaranteed to reduce the availability of all firearms by requiring a basic Tier 1 license at a minimum which would be similar to a hunter safety course, with more and more restrictive tiers. Handguns and semi-automatic weapons capable of accepting high-capacity removable magazines (since I know from long experience calling these “assault weapons” is factually incorrect, but I hate typing that long qualifier…) would require a much higher bar to own. I would also ban firearms ownership based on any violent misdemeanors including juvenile offenses (it’s long past time to stop hiding the crimes of violent teens).

It would be give and take, however, in that the Tier 3 and 4 licenses would effectively be a national carry license, and Tier 4 would give a police-level of carry ability. I would also end the 1986 ban on new NFA weapons for NFA licensees.

In short, I propose “register the owner, not the gun” and “restrict, reduce, but do not ban.”

Thus far, no anti-gun or pro-gun person on my board thinks my system is good, which probably means it sucks…well, it’s an idea, what can I say?

As a petite woman who was raped once and could have easily prevented it had she been allowed legal access to a gun (not possible at the time), I am strongly pro-self defense. Bans cannot abide in my opinion until the anti-gun folks who happen to be in favor of such can convince me of an effective form of self-defense a 100-pound woman can use against a 250-pound man who wants to rape, torture, and kill her. It’s not a solution for all women - an annoying large number of women, IME, are simply not mentally ready nor able to use a firearm to defend themselves, and I cringe every time I hear another woman say “I’d be afraid of having a gun…the man would just take it away from me and use it on me.” Well first off sister, good for recognizing that yes, you definitely should not have a gun at this time if the “majesty of the man” cows you so much. And second, guess what, if the man can take the gun from you he can also probably kill you in a variety of inventive and nasty ways.

And tasers, pepper spray, Judo and Jujitsu…not for everyone, and not nearly as effective. While I have successfully used my unarmed combat skills once against a very large male recently in a bar, that’s the exception, and I was trained in that specific technique by my weapons master for weeks - not any 2-hour community college class in “rape escape.” It takes hard work, bruises, and repetition to get the instincts and ability to immediately break free of the grab, pull distance, and punch the motherfucker in the side of their neck such that they run like their feet were on fire and their ass was catching. And I was lucky, I was in a well-lit place, solid footing (OK, 4-inch heels, but still, it wasn’t like on the grass) with half a dozen of my girls around me who had my back.

And I’m also mildly anti-hunting, which alienates me from most of the pro-gun folks on this message board. I’m not a prohibitionist, but I am definitely not a fan and want some more restrictions on lead in the environment and protection of predators such as mountain lions.

So yes I am firmly in the camp of firearms ownership in terms of self-defense, made available to a large majority of persons. But like myself my opinions have changed, and like myself are likely to change further.

Likewise, I’m not really comfortable with hunting. I was born in farm country and often knew the name of the critter served at supper. That’s why I don’t eat animals now. I wouldn’t ban hunting, though. It’s well regulated most of the time. How often do we hear of a hunter going postal with his 16 gauge bird gun or 30-06?

I’m a lefty lefty left left left liberal, but I have to say, this gun-fear is quite a remarkable social phenomenon. Back in the 70s, I was in an Anthropology class at the University and I wrote a paper on … (Da-dada-da-da!) Gun violence in our society. Whoo-hoo, got an “A”. Anyway, we didn’t have handy computers back then, I was stuck in a scary giant room, with countless terminals hardwired to a behemoth mainframe in some basement.

The computer did have FBI records, and I pored over these volumes for what seemed weeks. At that time, if memory serves, the gun related crimes (as I’m sure most others, too) were categorized, and cross-referenced to allow highlighting the “race” of the criminal and also the “race” of the victim(s).

[SirGalahad]

@Una_Persson

One might level such at me; I used to be a real nasty bitch to people on here who didn’t deserve it, back when I was sick.

I did modify my views on gun rights and ownership over time. When I first started debating it on here 12 years ago my stance was “no new laws, loosen existing ones.” But several things have modified my stance:

1. In the endless Sisyphean debates which have rampaged back and forth across this message boards, there has been that occasional 1 in 1,000 pro-gun-control posts which made me think. Not many, but given there have been surely tens of thousands of such, I’ve nonetheless had ample material to consider.

2. I’ve grown older. I’ve been on this message board an incredible 45% of my adult life (starting counting from age 18). A lot happened to me in 12 years. Time passes, seasons change, and so do people. I’ve had in my life an accumulated experience which is very large, of people abusing and misusing guns, having accidents with guns, and generally being dangerous, unstable assholes with them. I’ve also seen far too many people who are so mentally unstable they should never, ever, be allowed a knife, let alone a gun - but because they are undiagnosed and not “in the system,” these loons can go and buy anything they want which is legally available.

And to be blunt, some of them really scare me.

3. I went through a major life change this last year which changed me. It changed my thought processes as well, washed away 30+ years of horrible depression, and made every day the best doggone day of my life. I don’t approach debates with a “must destroy idiot fucktard” attitude, I want to listen more, and sit and think, and appreciate the argument. I don’t get angry any more, or only very rarely. I don’t drink any more. I love life and I think everything is absolutely awesome, and so I try to listen more to people, or else politely tune them out if they insist on being rude.

I proposed on my board a system of owner licensing (not gun registration) which was 4-tiered and which would be guaranteed to reduce the availability of all firearms by requiring a basic Tier 1 license at a minimum which would be similar to a hunter safety course, with more and more restrictive tiers. Handguns and semi-automatic weapons capable of accepting high-capacity removable magazines (since I know from long experience calling these “assault weapons” is factually incorrect, but I hate typing that long qualifier…) would require a much higher bar to own. I would also ban firearms ownership based on any violent misdemeanors including juvenile offenses (it’s long past time to stop hiding the crimes of violent teens).

It would be give and take, however, in that the Tier 3 and 4 licenses would effectively be a national carry license, and Tier 4 would give a police-level of carry ability. I would also end the 1986 ban on new NFA weapons for NFA licensees.

In short, I propose “register the owner, not the gun” and “restrict, reduce, but do not ban.”

Thus far, no anti-gun or pro-gun person on my board thinks my system is good, which probably means it sucks…well, it’s an idea, what can I say?

As a petite woman who was raped once and could have easily prevented it had she been allowed legal access to a gun (not possible at the time), I am strongly pro-self defense. Bans cannot abide in my opinion until the anti-gun folks who happen to be in favor of such can convince me of an effective form of self-defense a 100-pound woman can use against a 250-pound man who wants to rape, torture, and kill her. It’s not a solution for all women - an annoying large number of women, IME, are simply not mentally ready nor able to use a firearm to defend themselves, and I cringe every time I hear another woman say “I’d be afraid of having a gun…the man would just take it away from me and use it on me.” Well first off sister, good for recognizing that yes, you definitely should not have a gun at this time if the “majesty of the man” cows you so much. And second, guess what, if the man can take the gun from you he can also probably kill you in a variety of inventive and nasty ways.

And tasers, pepper spray, Judo and Jujitsu…not for everyone, and not nearly as effective. While I have successfully used my unarmed combat skills once against a very large male recently in a bar, that’s the exception, and I was trained in that specific technique by my weapons master for weeks - not any 2-hour community college class in “rape escape.” It takes hard work, bruises, and repetition to get the instincts and ability to immediately break free of the grab, pull distance, and punch the motherfucker in the side of their neck such that they run like their feet were on fire and their ass was catching. And I was lucky, I was in a well-lit place, solid footing (OK, 4-inch heels, but still, it wasn’t like on the grass) with half a dozen of my girls around me who had my back.

And I’m also mildly anti-hunting, which alienates me from most of the pro-gun folks on this message board. I’m not a prohibitionist, but I am definitely not a fan and want some more restrictions on lead in the environment and protection of predators such as mountain lions.

So yes I am firmly in the camp of firearms ownership in terms of self-defense, made available to a large majority of persons. But like myself my opinions have changed, and like myself are likely to change further.

Likewise, I’m not really comfortable with hunting. I was born in farm country and often knew the name of the critter served at supper. That’s why I don’t eat animals now. I wouldn’t ban hunting, though. It’s well regulated most of the time. How often do we hear of a hunter going postal with his 16 gauge bird gun or 30-06?

I’m a lefty lefty left left left liberal, but I have to say, this gun-fear is quite a remarkable social phenomenon. Back in the 70s, I was in an Anthropology class at the University and I wrote a paper on … (Da-dada-da-da!) Gun violence in our society. Whoo-hoo, got an “A”. Anyway, we didn’t have handy computers back then, I was stuck in a scary giant room, with countless terminals hardwired to a behemoth mainframe in some basement.

The computer did have FBI records, and I pored over these volumes for what seemed weeks. At that time, if memory serves, the gun related crimes (as I’m sure most others, too) were categorized, and cross-referenced to allow highlighting the “race” of the criminal and also the “race” of the victim(s).
To get to the point, pull the minority figures, and America’s gun violence rate (back then) compared favorably with any other industrial nation.

Simply put, that makes me nervous. I don’t trust that every activist “gunning” for the 2nd Amendment has Altruistic motives.

[Ethilrist]

@Harborwolf

We won’t be able to tell the good guys with guns from the bad guys with guns until they start shooting.

@Peremensoe

How is any of this changed by open carry versus concealed?

I’m not really looking forward to a sound bite on the news: “Honestly, I had no idea. I thought they were just a couple of honest citizens exercising their 2nd amendment rights; it didn’t even occur to me to call the police. How should I know they were going to go into that school and start shooting the place up?”

I am perfectly fine with open carry. I am also perfectly fine with every single person on the street calling the cops (maybe not 911, but a lot of municipalities have a “non-emergency but kinda important” number to call) every time they see someone carrying a gun. Particularly two guys with rifles outside a school just as the kids are getting out for the day.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Emtar_KronJonDerSohn

I’m not defending anybody. The two men with rifles were within their rights and had done nothing wrong. If they had, they would have been arrested. What anyone thinks their motivations were is irrelevant; one needs no justification to exercise a right.

These two men were apparently within their rights and in full compliance with the law. Absolutely. OK. No question about it.

But I would hardly say they did nothing wrong. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong. They paraded around the streets with guns, scaring the shit out of a bunch of people. For no fucking good reason.

After a truly tragic school shooting quite recently, does anyone really think it’s not wrong to make another school go into protective mode and to scare the shit out of a bunch of children, and parents, and teachers?

What a pair of assholes. They are obviously deeply stupid men, but they cannot be so stupid as to not understand the effect their actions would have on people. Especially parents and teachers and even children. And if they understood what the effects would be, I’m betting they got off in some shitty little way on the fear they were causing.

[elucidator]

Sure, but their premise is that it shouldn’t, that we should view a person carrying a weapon like we view a person carrying a lunchbox.

[Peremensoe]

@Ethilrist

I’m not really looking forward to a sound bite on the news: “Honestly, I had no idea. I thought they were just a couple of honest citizens exercising their 2nd amendment rights; it didn’t even occur to me to call the police. How should I know they were going to go into that school and start shooting the place up?”

I am perfectly fine with open carry. I am also perfectly fine with every single person on the street calling the cops (maybe not 911, but a lot of municipalities have a “non-emergency but kinda important” number to call) every time they see someone carrying a gun. Particularly two guys with rifles outside a school just as the kids are getting out for the day.

I’m not defending the mooks of the OP who were being deliberately provocative. I’m saying, why would a citizen openly carrying a holstered sidearm (say) impel you to call police? As I’ve said before, you pass by and interact with people carrying guns every day, without knowing it. Wouldn’t someone with malicious intent be more likely to keep his weapon under his coat than on his hip?

[Ethilrist]

@Peremensoe

I’m not defending the mooks of the OP who were being deliberately provocative. I’m saying, why would a citizen openly carrying a holstered sidearm (say) impel you to call police? As I’ve said before, you pass by and interact with people carrying guns every day, without knowing it. Wouldn’t someone with malicious intent be more likely to keep his weapon under his coat than on his hip?

It’s situational, at least in part:

@Ethilrist

Particularly two guys with rifles outside a school just as the kids are getting out for the day.

If I were someplace that I would consider a spree-killing zone (shopping mall, school, public park with lots of people around), I’d want to call the less-than-emergency number, unless there were police officers already there who had already seen the guy.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Ethilrist

It’s situational, at least in part:

If I were someplace that I would consider a spree-killing zone (shopping mall, school, public park with lots of people around), I’d want to call the less-than-emergency number, unless there were police officers already there who had already seen the guy.

If I were someplace that anyone would consider a “spree-killing zone,” I would damn well hope everyone within half a mile would call the actual emergency number immediately if they saw a couple of guys anywhere near a school with rifles and pistols. Given the events of the last few months, it’s not really the time for waffling, you know? I really can’t see myself spending a lot of time analyzing the situation and trying to decide if the men near a whole bunch of children were just exercising their second amendment rights, whatever the fuck that means, or psychos planning on going out in a blaze of glory and taking a bunch of kids with them.

[Jenaroph]

@Saintly_Loser

I really can’t see myself spending a lot of time analyzing the situation and trying to decide if the men near a whole bunch of children were just exercising their second amendment rights, whatever the fuck that means, or psychos planning on going out in a blaze of glory and taking a bunch of kids with them.

If I were really evil and had someone I REALLY wanted to kill, and damn the consequences, I might get a permit and start carrying a gun around openly and tell people I’m just exercising my 2nd amendment rights, and carrying it around to protect the public, right? You never know when you might be at the 7-11 and some guy holds it up, and if a good gun-carrying patriot is right there, they could take the scum out and be a hero, right?

Get everybody including my target good and used to seeing me with my gun. Then, one day, I’ll just waltz up and take him out. Nobody’ll stop me, 'cause they’ve seen me with my gun LOTS of times and I’ve never shot anyone before. He won’t even realize he should duck as I walk right up to him and blow his head off. That’ll teach the bastard to let his dog shit on my lawn and not clean it up.

Why on earth anybody thinks it’s a good idea to get everybody used to seeing random people walking around with guns, instead of being wary of them, is beyond me.

*Disclaimer: I have no intention of actually buying a gun nor do I care that much if someone’s dog shits on my lawn.

[Jenaroph]

@Saintly_Loser

I really can’t see myself spending a lot of time analyzing the situation and trying to decide if the men near a whole bunch of children were just exercising their second amendment rights, whatever the fuck that means, or psychos planning on going out in a blaze of glory and taking a bunch of kids with them.

If I were really evil and had someone I REALLY wanted to kill, and damn the consequences, I might get a permit and start carrying a gun around openly and tell people I’m just exercising my 2nd amendment rights, and carrying it around to protect the public, right? You never know when you might be at the 7-11 and some guy holds it up, and if a good gun-carrying patriot is right there, they could take the scum out and be a hero, right?

Get everybody including my target good and used to seeing me with my gun. Then, one day, I’ll just waltz up and take him out. Nobody’ll stop me, 'cause they’ve seen me with my gun LOTS of times and I’ve never shot anyone before. He won’t even realize he should duck as I walk right up to him and blow his head off. That’ll teach the bastard to let his dog shit on my lawn and not clean it up.

Why on earth anybody thinks that getting everybody used to seeing random people walking around with guns is a good idea, instead of being wary of them, is beyond me.

*Disclaimer: I have no intention of actually buying a gun nor do I care that much if someone’s dog shits on my lawn.

[Stealth_Potato]

@Jenaroph

Get everybody including my target good and used to seeing me with my gun. Then, one day, I’ll just waltz up and take him out. Nobody’ll stop me, 'cause they’ve seen me with my gun LOTS of times and I’ve never shot anyone before.

Or – wait, hear me out on this – you could just hide the gun under your jacket and then shoot him when he’s not expecting it. Much less fuss.

Your scenario makes no sense and has no discernible relation to the question of whether familiarity with openly carried firearms is a good idea or not.

[Jenaroph]

If my gun of choice is a rifle like the guys in the OP? Ain’t going to fit under any jacket I own.

That aside; all right, is familiarity with openly carried firearms a good idea? If so many people open carry that nobody notices when one walks into the room till the one actual nutjob opens fire, is that a good thing? Or is it better to notice the guy with the gun right away because it* is* rare?

And if the answer is always “Well, what if the bad guy has the gun hidden in his jacket” then why are there so many people adamantly defending their right to open carry and make people nervous? Won’t everybody be watching* them*, instead of being on guard for the guy with the hidden gun?

[Stealth_Potato]

@Jenaroph

If my gun of choice is a rifle like the guys in the OP? Ain’t going to fit under any jacket I own.

No offense, but if your choice of gun for a close-quarters assassination is a rifle, you would be a fairly shoddy assassin.

@Jenaroph

That aside; all right, is familiarity with openly carried firearms a good idea? If so many people open carry that nobody notices when one walks into the room till the one actual nutjob opens fire, is that a good thing? Or is it better to notice the guy with the gun right away because it* is* rare?

A man going crazy and shooting a bunch of people is already extremely rare. No amount of familiarity with the act of carrying is going to make much difference; and such a person would be ill-advised to begin his massacre in a place where it’s common for people to carry rifles anyway.

But open carry, as a political movement, generally focuses on holstered pistols, not rifles. Most pro-open carry folks look down on people who want to carry a rifle just to look tough or cause a scene. That has never been common except in places where people often have a good reason to carry a rifle (and in those places it doesn’t raise an eyebrow).

[gamerunknown]

What’s the benefit of universal open carry?

Life imitating Onion!