# Assuage my paranoia. Explain to me why I should have faith in E-voting machines **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532 "2006-10-23T04:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/161 "2006-10-27T00:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Hit the tape, boys! [/QUOTE] I’m looking for the quote from me saying that tampering couldn’t be done. I’m still waiting. Keep trying, you know what they say, if an infinite number of monkeys fling an infinite amount of shit at an infinite number of computers, inevitably they will produce all of rjung’s posts. See if the monkeys can come up with this phantom quote. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/162 "2006-10-27T06:27:41Z")
Right, **Dave.** And next you’ll tell us that the rolleyes was actually shorthand for “Yes, there is definitely a risk of election fraud on an unprecedented scale with e-voting machines, I agree with you completely.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/163 "2006-10-27T07:19:27Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Right, **Dave.** And next you’ll tell us that the rolleyes was actually shorthand for “Yes, there is definitely a risk of election fraud on an unprecedented scale with e-voting machines, I agree with you completely.” 😉 [/QUOTE] No, rjung, the rolleyes was in response to your standard “It’s all because all Republicans are eeeeeevil” conspiracy nonsense. The flaws in the system are ripe for exploitation by either party. You may enjoy being a mindless partisan conspiracy automaton, but I’m going to call you on it every time. I clearly said, in this thread: > [@me](#): > > Trivially easy to do to a Diebold machine? Maybe. Hell, from what I’ve seen, I’ll even say probably. Which you then characterized as: > [@rjung](#): > > But it can’t be done! xtisme and WeirdDave said so! There is a word for this: _lying_. This is a flat out, no holds barred, lie. You lie constantly on these boards in an orgy of partisan fanwankery, hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if you don’t even realize yourself that you are doing it since it’s so much a part of your core being. If those are the depths that you feel compelled to lower yourself to in order to salvage some small feeling of self worth for yourself, knock yourself out, I won’t do anything except pity you, and probably not even that, you’re not worth it, I have more important things to worry about, like the blackheads on my back. However, this time you are lying, quite brazenly, about what I actually said in this thread, and I’m not letting it go. You flat out said that I made a statement that I did not make. Either provide a quote from me (this is a message board after all, our deathless prose is all written in electronic stone for eternity, it shouldn’t be hard for you to dig up the quote-if it existed, that is) stating that I said it (election tampering) couldn’t be done or admit your sniveling, cowardly little LIE and slink away. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/164 "2006-10-27T10:46:38Z")
**Cheesesteak** had asserted that very few people (“so few”) were concerned about the lack of a paper trail, to which I responded: [QUOTE=ambushed] Few? It is to laugh. From: [Shock Looms On Nov. 7 From Unproven Voting Systems](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/23/opinion/main2114650.shtml) > [@](#): > > In a typical finding, **80 percent** of voters in a new poll in Pennsylvania say it is important for electronic voting machines to have a verifiable paper trail, and only a third believe that votes cast on an electronic voting machine can be fully trusted to be accurate. [/QUOTE] To which **John Mace** replied: [QUOTE=John Mace] This is the kind of stuff you really have to be careful about in polls. These people are really shocked and up in arms and they are doing exactly what about it? [/QUOTE] Does anyone else think that was a rather dubious response? Does Mace dispute the 80% figure showing **Cheesesteak** was completely and utterly wrong? Oh, no. He probably realized that he’d lose on that score. So what does he do instead? _He insinuates they’re liars!_ He implicitly argues that since the 80% of the population hasn’t done anything (and how does he know that?), they only responded “Yes” to the poll because… um, er, because… Oh: because they lied since they really didn’t care _enough_! May I ask you, John, how you would know they were genuinely concerned about the lack of a paper trail if the poll isn’t sufficient? Would they have to burn down the White House, or what, exactly? Then it gets even better… In response to **Cheesesteak’s** claim that it’s pretty much only Democrats who are worried about voting fraud because pretty much only they were concerned about apparent irregularities in the 2004 election, and that swing voters don’t care about these things, I replied: [QUOTE=ambushed] Not really. According to a Zogby poll, the majority of Americans (52%) have doubts about the validity and integrity of the 2004 election (see [Zogby - Voters Question Outcome Of '04 Election](http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0609/S00346.htm)). 56% of **Independents** share those doubts, along with 19% of Republicans. [/QUOTE] Mace replied: [QUOTE=John Mace] Those look like the kind of numbers you’d get if you asked people if Bigfoot, UFOs, or Ghosts were real. [/QUOTE] Dare I repeat it? _It is to laugh!_ Why wasn’t anyone else troubled, or at least amused, by that curious, even disingenuous, reply? After all, **John Mace** is no hit-n-run poster. It’s actually fairly sly. Who can dispute that a majority of Americans hold various paranormal beliefs? But look at the rhetorical smuggling going on there: we’re led to believe that, since ostensibly 52-56% of Americans believe in ghosts (and ghosts are presumably not real), when 52-56% of Americans believe anything else, _they’re imagining things, too!_ **Whee!** Thanks for the Mace, John! ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/165 "2006-10-27T10:53:01Z")
[QUOTE=spazattak] Nopers. The main reason everyone was rushing to replace the old systems with inadequate new electronic systems was because of federal funding. The main problem here is the Help America Vote Act and its [ridiculous deadlines](http://www.fec.gov/hava/timeline.htm) to obtain the associated federal funds to upgrade voting machines. Now the debacle in florida is what helped to get this legislation passed, no doubt, but make no mistake - if this legislation would have given states adequate time to research and evaluate these machines and their downfalls and drawbacks, we wouldn’t be in this mess right now. [/QUOTE] You _do_ realize, don’t you, that you first said I was wrong and then you said I was right after all? Not a big gripe, though. I certainly appreciate your bringing that ARS article to our attention. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/166 "2006-10-27T11:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Ambushed? People care about something when they’re willing to vote someone out of office over it, or vote on a referendum about it. [/QUOTE] I see. So no one cares about cancer, for instance, since vengeance voting won’t eliminate cancer. Got it. 😃 Tell us, then, exactly _who_ do we vote out of office on this? If you can’t do that, point us to the referendum we can vote on about this. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/167 "2006-10-27T12:51:18Z")
[QUOTE=black rabbit] The BOE issues me a key pair, my vote is immediately encrypted and signed before being inserted, and decrypted/verified with my public key at tabulation time = OK. [/QUOTE] The problem with this scheme is that someone could figure out who _you_ voted for. A key concept of our ballots is that they’re secret. Even if you only publish a vote next to a voter ID number, and give each voter a receipt, you open the door to vote buying, and that would make the Diebold vulnerabilities seem miniscule. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/168 "2006-10-27T13:17:07Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Tell us, then, exactly _who_ do we vote out of office on this? If you can’t do that, point us to the referendum we can vote on about this. Thanks! [/QUOTE] SOMEONE decided to buy these crap-ass machines, didn’t they? The old mechanical machines didn’t just evolve on their own, some politician reviewed the product proposal, accepted the product proposal, and is implementing the usage of these faulty voting machines. That guy needs to lose his job, if you think this is a really important thing to get right. If it’s a group of politicians, then the entire group needs to go. That’s who you vote out. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/169 "2006-10-27T13:32:49Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] SOMEONE decided to buy these crap-ass machines, didn’t they? The old mechanical machines didn’t just evolve on their own, some politician reviewed the product proposal, accepted the product proposal, and is implementing the usage of these faulty voting machines. That guy needs to lose his job, if you think this is a really important thing to get right. If it’s a group of politicians, then the entire group needs to go. That’s who you vote out. [/QUOTE] Its not that easy. Go up and check the link I made to the deadlines associated with obtaining federal funds. If the counties wanted federal funds to replace machines they needed to buy them last year. There were many many BOEs that weren’t satisfied with anything currently on the market, but if they didn’t make the decision to purchase at that very second, the cash strapped states and counties would lose the millions of federal dollars that they could receive for replacements. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/170 "2006-10-27T16:21:28Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] There is a word for this: _lying_. [/quote] Conservatives: no sense of humor. But then I shouldn’t be surprised – after six years of Bush-level rhetoric, it should be obvious that the only way to get a conservative to understand something is to write it out in ten-foot-tall neon letters, using black-and-white terms and **very small words.** ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/171 "2006-10-27T17:46:29Z")
Ahh, I get it. You claim that I said something that I did not say, in GD no less, and then when called upon to back up your lie with cites, you were “just joking”, and I have “no sense of humor”. Followed by a personal insult. You seem to have hit the trifecta of things that we aren’t supposed to do in GD. Remind me, why are you here again? Seems to me you’d be more comfortable sharing the kool-aid with your fellow comrades in blogspace somewhere rather than on a message board dedicated to “fighting” ignorance, not embracing it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/172 "2006-10-27T17:48:46Z")
And now, patheticly, **Ambushed** tries to undermine the civil rights of ghosts… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/173 "2006-10-27T18:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=spazattak] There were many many BOEs that weren’t satisfied with anything currently on the market, but if they didn’t make the decision to purchase at that very second, the cash strapped states and counties would lose the millions of federal dollars that they could receive for replacements. [/QUOTE] If I don’t go out and buy new machines that put my elections at risk today, the feds won’t give me money to buy new machines that put my elections at risk. Is there supposed to be a conundrum there? Don’t replace good machines with crappy machines, even if they’re free. ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/174 "2006-10-27T18:39:47Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] If I don’t go out and buy new machines that put my elections at risk today, the feds won’t give me money to buy new machines that put my elections at risk. Is there supposed to be a conundrum there? Don’t replace good machines with crappy machines, even if they’re free. [/QUOTE] The conundrum is that they have to be replaced in the near future (10 yrs or so?)anyway and passing up the opportunity to do it now for essentially free could amount to fleecing your citizens. Making everything digital will be a huge project that requires lots of money - money most counties don’t have to dedicate to something like this - so the federal government rightly stepped in to alleviate the heavy burden. However, the legislation they passed to these ends was a steaming pile of 3 day old moldy diarrhea. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/175 "2006-10-27T23:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Ahh, I get it. You claim that I said something that I did not say, in GD no less, and then when called upon to back up your lie with cites, you were “just joking”, and I have “no sense of humor”. [/quote] No, I made a quip, using that time-tested technique of “exaggeration for comic effect,” which you chose to interpret as a statement of fact in order to take offense and then break out the fiddles for another round of “po’ po’ persecuted conservative.” I’d say more, but this frog is already dissected, and there’s no point in further illustration your sandblasted senses of comedy. > [@Weirddave](#): > > Remind me, why are you here again? Just think of me as a modern-day prospector, mining for comedic gold in the mountain of neoconservative malfeasance and their foothills of apologists. And you, dear **Dave,** are a motherlode (though I won’t say a load of _what_). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/176 "2006-10-28T00:45:23Z")
The USA’s “democracy” has become the equivalent of a Haitian “election.” Then again, let’s look at the positives, biggest Banana Republic yet. No wonder so many of you are so eager to share it with the rest of the world. At gunpoint. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/177 "2006-10-28T00:52:02Z")
[Diebold CEO resigns after reports of fraud litigation, internal woes](http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Diebold_CEO_resigns_after_reports_of_1212.html) Amanzingly enough, the commntes on the story are quite on point. What’s happened to you, America? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/178 "2006-10-28T01:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] No, I made a quip, using that time-tested technique of “exaggeration for comic effect,” . . . [/quote] And yet, neutral observers out here in cyberspace read that in pretty much the same way the Dave did. [QUOTE=rjung] And you, dear **Dave,** are a motherlode (though I won’t say a load of _what_). [/QUOTE] But you will push the bounds of courtesy and the rules of this Forum to insinuate it with the utmost clarity. Do not repeat this type of comment. * * * This stuff is contentious enough without making every joke an attempt at a cheap shot. And I have nothing against cheap shots, but the appropriate response to one that misses the mark is to apologize and look for a better delivery the next time, not to use disingenous “Who, me?” claims to avoid admitting that the “humor” misfired. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/179 "2006-10-28T01:35:35Z")
And EVERYONE needs to back off and cool off a bit. There is no need to make every political discussion a pseudo Pit thread where there are more veiled insults and _ad hominem_ attacks than actual consideration of the issues. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532/180 "2006-10-28T01:36:54Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] Even if you only publish a vote next to a voter ID number, and give each voter a receipt, you open the door to vote buying, and that would make the Diebold vulnerabilities seem miniscule. [/QUOTE] How so? As described by the article posted by both spazattack and myself, the Diebold vulnerabilities allow for wholesale fraud by a single individual or a small group. Some kid in his mom’s basement (or, say, a corrupt elections official) can throw an entire district. Vote-buying is a strictly retail problem. By definition, it requires the participation of hundreds to thousands of people. Don’t you think _somebody_ might let it slip? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuage-my-paranoia-explain-to-me-why-i-should-have-faith-in-e-voting-machines/377532.md?page=10)