# Assume that Trump colluded with Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 2, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060 "2018-02-02T20:16:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/21 "2018-02-04T00:22:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Given the whole “fighting ignorance” thing, can we try to be a little more precise with our language here? The Russians aren’t accused of changing the results of the election. People voted, the votes were counted and the numbers properly reported. They are accused of influencing the electorate with fake news and hacking/releasing emails. 😕 They influenced it without changing it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/22 "2018-02-04T00:28:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > 😕 They influenced it without changing it? :dubious: They influenced the electorate. Then there was a vote. This isn’t complicated. I have to assume you see a difference between a dirty ad campaign and stuffing the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/23 "2018-02-04T01:55:20Z")
If Rich Whitney couldn’t get a do-over, no one can. > **[A Vote for 'Rich Whitey'](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/10/a-vote-for-rich-whitey/64641/)** > > A Chicago ballot blunder ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/24 "2018-02-04T02:10:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why would it make any difference in the investigation if Trump is guilty or not? Are you saying that there are ways of handling the investigation that are OK if he is guilty but not if he is innocent? More or less agreed. But if they know there was “collusion”, then the investigation is over. The point of the investigation is to determine the facts. If the facts are known, you don’t need an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/25 "2018-02-04T18:06:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > More or less agreed. But if they know there was “collusion”, then the investigation is over. The point of the investigation is to determine the facts. If the facts are known, you don’t need an investigation. Then by definition any investigation fights the hypothetical in the OP. If they had known there was collusion, they would not have investigated. Since they did investigate, they could not have “known”. It appears it was done in case Trump won, to use what the Russians gave them to discredit Trump and cripple his Presidency. Which is what Putin wants. So the hypothetical switches to “what should the FBI have done, assuming the purpose of the Russians is to disrupt the elections no matter who won?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/26 "2018-02-04T19:00:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It appears it was done in case Trump won, to use what the Russians gave them to discredit Trump and cripple his Presidency. Which is what Putin wants. OK, I’ll play along. Cite away. And not from Fox News, Breitbart, or Infowars. Oh, sorry, I forgot. You don’t do cites. It ‘appears.’ ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/27 "2018-02-04T20:40:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It appears it was done in case Trump won, to use what the Russians gave them to discredit Trump and cripple his Presidency. Which is what Putin wants. You’re rather glossing over the fact that the intelligence community has concluded that Russia intervened in order to elect Trump. That’s what Putin wanted. The question is whether the Trump campaign worked with him in some way, wittingly or unwittingly, and of course whether Trump and Company committed any other crimes along the way. In other words, Putin wanted to sow chaos in the US and Trump by himself has been exceeding all expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/28 "2018-02-04T21:14:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then by definition any investigation fights the hypothetical in the OP. If they had known there was collusion, they would not have investigated. Since they did investigate, they could not have “known”. Investigations have the function of ‘finding out’ if a crime was committed–but also the function of ‘establishing evidence’ that a crime was committed. You are ignoring that second function. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/29 "2018-02-04T21:20:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Investigations have the function of ‘finding out’ if a crime was committed–but also the function of ‘establishing evidence’ that a crime was committed. > > You are ignoring that second function. OK, but then let’s not fight the hypothetical. How would the FBI “know” Trump is guilty without evidence? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/30 "2018-02-04T21:30:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, but then let’s not fight the hypothetical. How would the FBI “know” Trump is guilty without evidence? > > Regards, > Shodan The OP’s hypothetical makes no such claim. We, the omniscient third party, know that trump is guilty. That does not mean that the FBI does. Have you ever read a book where you, the reader, had access to information that the protagonist didn’t? If so, were you confused by the fact that the protagonist was not operating on information that you possess, but they didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/31 "2018-02-04T21:32:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, but then let’s not fight the hypothetical. How would the FBI “know” Trump is guilty without evidence? What makes you think they have no evidence? …This is one of the less-intelligent tactics Trumpians are using: the nutty idea that **if no evidence has yet been made public that proves there is no evidence!!1!!!1!!!** Perhaps you didn’t realize that this stunningly idiotic ‘reasoning’ is convincing only to extremely stupid people. But let’s follow that ‘logic’ to its conclusion: All law enforcement-investigation personnel are hereby fired and their jobs eliminated, because ‘unless evidence of a crime is already public then there is no evidence’. **™** And no reason to prosecute all those crimes for which ‘there is no evidence’ (since the existing evidence isn’t yet public). So, no reason for any of those tens of thousands of law-enforcement professionals–in local and state police forces; in military police; in the FBI, etc. etc.–to have jobs. _‘If evidence isn’t already public then it doesn’t exist’_—this is the position FoxNews and associated Trumpists are taking. And it’s daft. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/32 "2018-02-04T21:57:45Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > What makes you think they have no evidence? It’s in the OP. The FBI “knows” somehow that Trump is guilty. How do they “know” that? Either they have evidence, in which case they wouldn’t need to investigate, or they don’t have evidence, in which case they don’t “know”. > [@](#): > > if no evidence has yet been made public that proves there is no evidence!!1!!!1!!! No it doesn’t - it proves that no evidence has yet been made public. It also proves that those who are thoroughly convinced of Trump’s guilt are not basing their opinions on evidence. Although I do rather suspect that the Mueller investigation is going to take a lot - a **lot** -of very determined spin before the Dems figure out what to do next. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/33 "2018-02-04T22:16:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s in the OP. The FBI “knows” somehow that Trump is guilty. Actually, that’s not in the OP. It says “let’s assume Trump is guilty” not what you said. Frankly the OP is a tad disjointed, as we don’t need to assume anything to discuss the best way for the FBI to run such an investigation. But you are taking a rather ridiculously extreme and aggressive misinterpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/34 "2018-02-04T22:35:27Z")
Hey OP, you should start another thread: “What would happen if aliens visited earth?” You’d get dozens of posts arguing that you can’t prove that the little green men aren’t actually humans. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/35 "2018-02-04T22:51:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s in the OP. The FBI “knows” somehow that Trump is guilty. How do they “know” that? Either they have evidence, in which case they wouldn’t need to investigate, or they don’t have evidence, in which case they don’t “know”. In addition to the problems with your interpretation of the OP (described in the posts just before this one), you are mixing up “evidence” with “proof.” They’re not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/36 "2018-02-05T01:25:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Given the whole “fighting ignorance” thing, can we try to be a little more precise with our language here? The Russians aren’t accused of changing the results of the election. People voted, the votes were counted and the numbers properly reported. They are accused of influencing the electorate with fake news and hacking/releasing emails. > [@CarnalK](#): > > They influenced the electorate. Then there was a vote. This isn’t complicated. I have to assume you see a difference between a dirty ad campaign and stuffing the ballot box. That’s a wildly fine hair you’re trying to split. If a foreign power meddled in such a way that the results of the election were different than if they hadn’t meddled, “changed the results of the election” seems like an entirely fair way to refer to their actions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/37 "2018-02-05T01:57:28Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > That’s a wildly fine hair you’re trying to split. If a foreign power meddled in such a way that the results of the election were different than if they hadn’t meddled, “changed the results of the election” seems like an entirely fair way to refer to their actions. Regardless of what **CarnalK** said, we don’t, in fact, know that the results were affected. The Russians tried to influence the outcome of the election. We can’t really know whether they succeeded in changing the results, though. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/38 "2018-02-05T02:13:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Regardless of what **CarnalK** said, we don’t, in fact, know that the results were affected. The Russians tried to influence the outcome of the election. We can’t really know whether they succeeded in changing the results, though. Spreading ridiculously false stories aimed at an audience with no inclination or desire to engage in critical thinking would certainly have some effect. Otherwise, why the attempt? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/39 "2018-02-05T02:20:46Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Spreading ridiculously false stories aimed at an audience with no inclination or desire to engage in critical thinking would certainly have some effect. > Otherwise, why the attempt? People attempt things all the time without accomplishing their goal. But if you have some way of measuring that the effect was big enough to flip the election, we’d all be interested in seeing it. In fact, Mueller would probably be interested, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/40 "2018-02-05T02:30:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People attempt things all the time without accomplishing their goal. But if you have some way of measuring that the effect was big enough to flip the election, we’d all be interested in seeing it. In fact, Mueller would probably be interested, too. 😉 I’m sure he already has it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060.md?page=3)