# Assume that Trump colluded with Russia **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 2, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060 "2018-02-02T20:16:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/41 "2018-02-05T02:39:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’m sure he already has it. He may have evidence of “collusion”, but it’s impossible to know whether the Russian disinformation campaign flipped the election. Absolutely impossible to know. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/42 "2018-02-05T02:40:56Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > That’s a wildly fine hair you’re trying to split. If a foreign power meddled in such a way that the results of the election were different than if they hadn’t meddled, “changed the results of the election” seems like an entirely fair way to refer to their actions. So you see no difference between a dirty ad campaign and stuffing the ballot box? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/43 "2018-02-05T02:44:02Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So you see no difference between a dirty ad campaign and stuffing the ballot box? In the interests of “fighting ignorance” thing, and being more precise with our language here, let’s be clear: When Republicans carefully say there is no evidence that Russians tampered with actual vote tallies, it’s important to keep in mind that _they never looked_. There has been no investigation of any kind into whether there is evidence of actual vote tally manipulation. None. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/44 "2018-02-05T02:46:39Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > In the interests of “fighting ignorance” thing, and being more precise with our language here, let’s be clear: When Republicans carefully say there is no evidence that Russians tampered with actual vote tallies, it’s important to keep in mind that _they never looked_. There has been no investigation of any kind into whether there is evidence of actual vote tally manipulation. None. And whose language are you trying to correct? What the fuck has that got to do with this conversation? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/45 "2018-02-05T02:50:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And whose language are you trying to correct? What the fuck has that got to do with this conversation? I’m only pointing out that there was zero investigation into whether vote tallies were tampered with. You keep trying to draw a distinction between “a dirty ad campaign and stuffing the ballot box.” I’m simply saying that we don’t really know if they stuffed the ballot box or not. Within that context, it seems germane to mention it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/46 "2018-02-05T15:37:45Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I’m only pointing out that there was zero investigation into whether vote tallies were tampered with. You keep trying to draw a distinction between “a dirty ad campaign and stuffing the ballot box.” I’m simply saying that we don’t really know if they stuffed the ballot box or not. Within that context, it seems germane to mention it. It’s not relevant to the distinction I am drawing nor to Timewinder’s assertion that there is no distinction. Yes, if they stuffed the ballot box then they stuffed the ballot box which is still different from a dirty ad campaign. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/47 "2018-02-05T16:12:07Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > In the interests of “fighting ignorance” thing, and being more precise with our language here, let’s be clear: When Republicans carefully say there is no evidence that Russians tampered with actual vote tallies, it’s important to keep in mind that _they never looked_. There has been no investigation of any kind into whether there is evidence of actual vote tally manipulation. None. You don’t think that either the Stein recounts or the President’s voter fraud commission count as having looked into it at least a little? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/48 "2018-02-05T16:37:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t think that either the Stein recounts or the President’s voter fraud commission count as having looked into it at least a little? I know this question was directed at **Aspenglow** and not me, but in my opinion no. Neither the Stein recounts nor the President’s voter fraud commission looked into vote tally tampering. Neither attempted or intended to do so. Do you think they did? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/49 "2018-02-05T17:03:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t think that either the Stein recounts or the President’s voter fraud commission count as having looked into it at least a little? No, I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that. If you have a pile of ballots, you can count them a thousand times to guarantee that the tally is correct. But if the provenance of the ballots is not investigated, simply counting them time and again doesn’t address the legitimacy of the ballots. And as far as the voter fraud commission, don’t make me laugh. I’m saying this as someone who simply believes there’s no conclusive evidence one way or another that Russians tampered with the vote. I don’t think they did, but I don’t think I could prove that. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/50 "2018-02-05T17:23:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m saying this as someone who simply believes there’s no conclusive evidence one way or another that Russians tampered with the vote. I don’t think they did, but I don’t think I could prove that. I’ll also add that I don’t think the vote tallies were tampered with. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/51 "2018-02-05T17:29:02Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > … Do you think they did? Why? I don’t know much about the specifics of how a recount works, but I got the impression Jill Stein thought it might uncover hacking / tampering if that happened. Here is a quote from [a CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/politics/wisconsin-michigan-pennsylvania-recount-how-it-works/index.html): > [@](#): > > Stein said on MSNBC Monday that she knows she won’t win – but she’s concerned enough about hacking of election machines that it’s worth the inquiry. > > “The nature of hacking is that you don’t see it if you don’t look,” Stein said. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/52 "2018-02-05T17:33:22Z")
Jill Stein may or may not believe any number of crazy things. I assume you agree. ---
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/53 "2018-02-06T14:26:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let’s assume that Trump (and his campaign) DID in fact collude with Russia. > > All of it is true, is the starting point for this discussion. > > How should the FBI have handled it and what should be done? What makes this difficult is there are no specifics - I suppose everyone has a different set of things that ‘all of it’ entails. I assume like most multi-millionaires Trump is corrupt and have no doubt he had shady dealings with other millionaires, some of them Russians. Did Putin and Trump reach an explicit agreement that The Kremlin would ‘hack’ or ‘rig’ the recent election in the US? Assuming that was true I suspect that NSA with its vast powers to collect information on everyone and everything would already have evidence of it. Then I suspect law enforcement would make efforts to secure that evidence. If the suggestion is that The Russians changed votes in our eminently hackable voting machines, then it would have been a good idea to look into it. That no one seems to be interested in doing so indicates to me that no one _really_ believes the ‘Russian Hack’ story. If anyone _really_ believed The Russians hacked the DNC servers, then the DNC would have allowed their servers to be examined, and law enforcement would have forced them to surrender this evidence rather than allowing it to be destroyed. It doesn’t look like the ‘all of its’ that require The Russians to do anything extraordinary don’t have much traction. It would appear the goalpost has been moved to The Russians ‘influencing’ the election somehow through social media. But then, no formal or explicit agreement would be needed for that. The person who sits in the White House exerts enormous power over the lives of billions of people who don’t get to vote on who will be the Leader of the World. If it comes down to wanting ‘dirt’ or ‘opposition research’ from Russian sources, then no doubt some sort of dossier on Clinton will turn up like the dossier on Trump we already have in hand. ---
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/54 "2018-02-06T14:40:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know much about the specifics of how a recount works, but I got the impression Jill Stein thought it might uncover hacking / tampering if that happened. Here is a quote from [a CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/politics/wisconsin-michigan-pennsylvania-recount-how-it-works/index.html): It seems there isn’t much interest in any investigation into _actual_ hacking of our elections. Gore and his party dropped the ball in the 2000 election. That neither party seems eager to open this can of worms is a pretty good indicator they don’t care much about whether your votes are counted or not. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/55 "2018-02-06T15:14:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that. If you have a pile of ballots, you can count them a thousand times to guarantee that the tally is correct. But if the provenance of the ballots is not investigated, simply counting them time and again doesn’t address the legitimacy of the ballots. > > And as far as the voter fraud commission, don’t make me laugh. > > I’m saying this as someone who simply believes there’s no conclusive evidence one way or another that Russians tampered with the vote. I don’t think they did, but I don’t think I could prove that. There is evdience that they tried to hack our elections by going after the [vote tallies directly](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/09/22/wisconsin-one-20-states-targeted-russian-hacking-elections-systems-2016/694719001/). There is no evidence that they succeeded, but if they succeeded, then they could have done so without leaving evidence. Most companies that get successfully hacked don’t know that they were hacked until they discover that someone else is in possession of what was proprietary information. I don’t think that we will ever find evidence one way or another whether the vote tallies themselves were altered by outside actors, but I would not just dismiss the possibility that they did so. Personally, given that they did try to infiltrate our voting systems to have the ability to change the vote, and that I do not believe that we have achieved 100% security around our voting process, I do think that it is very likely that some vote tallies were changed. OTOH, I see no reason to act on that conclusion, nor express it as more than opinion, unless or until some level of proof can be found. ETA: My real concern is less about the past, and more that no one is doing anything to ensure that such things do not happen in the future. ---
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/56 "2018-02-06T15:26:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There is evdience that they tried to hack our elections by going after the [vote tallies directly](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/09/22/wisconsin-one-20-states-targeted-russian-hacking-elections-systems-2016/694719001/). > > There is no evidence that they succeeded, but if they succeeded, then they could have done so without leaving evidence. Most companies that get successfully hacked don’t know that they were hacked until they discover that someone else is in possession of what was proprietary information. > > I don’t think that we will ever find evidence one way or another whether the vote tallies themselves were altered by outside actors, but I would not just dismiss the possibility that they did so. > > Personally, given that they did try to infiltrate our voting systems to have the ability to change the vote, and that I do not believe that we have achieved 100% security around our voting process, I do think that it is very likely that some vote tallies were changed. OTOH, I see no reason to act on that conclusion, nor express it as more than opinion, unless or until some level of proof can be found. > > ETA:\*\* My real concern is less about the past, and more that no one is doing anything to ensure that such things do not happen in the future.\*\* We’ve known about insecure voting systems, voter suppression, gerrymandering et al for a good long time. It speaks volumes that none of our Dear Leaders of either of The Two Parties seems very concerned about maintaining the integrity of our democracy. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/57 "2018-02-06T15:27:09Z")
They don’t have to manipulate the actual tallies. Manipulating voter registration data can have an effect. > **[Russian Election Hacking Efforts, Wider Than Previously Known, Draw Little...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/us/politics/russia-election-hacking.html)** > > A Times investigation has found that infiltration efforts were broader than previously disclosed and that state and federal agencies have conducted few forensic inquiries. > [@](#): > > Dozens were told they were ineligible to vote and were turned away at the polls, even when they displayed current registration cards. Others were sent from one polling place to another, only to be rejected. Scores of voters were incorrectly told they had cast ballots days earlier. In one precinct, voting halted for two hours. > > Susan Greenhalgh, a troubleshooter at a nonpartisan election monitoring group, was alarmed. Most of the complaints came from Durham, a blue-leaning county in a swing state. The problems involved electronic poll books — tablets and laptops, loaded with check-in software, that have increasingly replaced the thick binders of paper used to verify voters’ identities and registration status. She knew that the company that provided Durham’s software, VR Systems, had been penetrated by Russian hackers months before. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/58 "2018-02-06T15:48:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There is evdience that they tried to hack our elections by going after the [vote tallies directly](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/09/22/wisconsin-one-20-states-targeted-russian-hacking-elections-systems-2016/694719001/). That article does not discuss Russians going after vote tallies directly. From the article: > [@](#): > > The hacking attempt was on the state’s voter registration system, not voting machines. Had hackers taken over the voter registration system, they could have suspended people’s registrations, creating confusion and long lines at the polls. And comparing hacks to steal company secrets to voting systems hijinks is off for a couple reasons. First, there is a lot of more legit traffic for hackers to hide amongst. Secondly, the purpose of hacking a voting system would be to leave a trace, ie altering the data rather than just copy it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/59 "2018-02-06T16:04:41Z")
As stated, snooping around for voter rolls really isn’t the same as intruding on the systems that count votes. And even to the extent that it is possible that tampering with voter rolls could impact outcomes, as far as the 2016 election goes, when we are talking about dozens and scores of voters in various areas having problems voting, that generally sounds to me like incompetence, not foreign interference. What, you think Putin was really trying to swing the vote in the 11th state senate district? Now, this could become an alarmingly huge problem in the future, no doubt. For the simple reason that we really don’t have a legal mechanism for an electoral do-over, what if Russia interferes in the 2018 election to disqualify millions of Americans who are eligible to vote? That would be a HUGE deal, and I see zero evidence that the Trump Administration really cares about this at all. They are far more concerned about Mexicans voting for Clinton in 2016 to look beyond their noses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060/60 "2018-02-06T16:18:25Z")
> [@proudfootz](#): > > What makes this difficult is there are no specifics - I suppose everyone has a different set of things that ‘all of it’ entails. > > I assume like most multi-millionaires Trump is corrupt and have no doubt he had shady dealings with other millionaires, some of them Russians. > > Did Putin and Trump reach an explicit agreement that The Kremlin would ‘hack’ or ‘rig’ the recent election in the US? Assuming that was true I suspect that NSA with its vast powers to collect information on everyone and everything would already have evidence of it. Then I suspect law enforcement would make efforts to secure that evidence. > > If the suggestion is that The Russians changed votes in our eminently hackable voting machines, then it would have been a good idea to look into it. That no one seems to be interested in doing so indicates to me that no one _really_ believes the ‘Russian Hack’ story. > > If anyone _really_ believed The Russians hacked the DNC servers, then the DNC would have allowed their servers to be examined, and law enforcement would have forced them to surrender this evidence rather than allowing it to be destroyed. > > It doesn’t look like the ‘all of its’ that require The Russians to do anything extraordinary don’t have much traction. > > It would appear the goalpost has been moved to The Russians ‘influencing’ the election somehow through social media. But then, no formal or explicit agreement would be needed for that. The person who sits in the White House exerts enormous power over the lives of billions of people who don’t get to vote on who will be the Leader of the World. > > If it comes down to wanting ‘dirt’ or ‘opposition research’ from Russian sources, then no doubt some sort of dossier on Clinton will turn up like the dossier on Trump we already have in hand. A house of cards built on sand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assume-that-trump-colluded-with-russia/808060.md?page=4)