# Assuming Jewish word like Gentile is not derogatory; are there other cultures/language with such word/s? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 18, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433 "2022-10-18T15:10:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/61 "2022-10-19T19:32:49Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Pie makes a perfectly acceptable breakfast. Guess I’m a yankee. Blueberry pie, in particular, makes an excellent breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/62 "2022-10-19T19:33:58Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Pie makes a perfectly acceptable breakfast. Guess I’m a yankee. You have to eat apple pie with some hard cheddar cheese on top to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Joeu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joeu/32/2911_2.png) [@Joeu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joeu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/63 "2022-10-19T19:37:59Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Is “chauffeur” a French word, then? How about “chef”? If I talk about standing on my veranda, watching a tornado disrupt a rodeo, am I using Spanish words in an English sentence? When a language borrows a word from another tongue, that term becomes a word in the borrowing language. Which is why we would say “Reuben and David are having their bar mitzvahs on the same day”, rather than “…their bar mitzvot…” I’m not sure I’m seeing your point, or how it connects to mine. I was responding to a claim that because _gentile_, etymologically, originated as a translation (into Latin) of a Hebrew word, _gentile_ could be considered a "Jewish word. " I disputed that claim. _Gentile_ is really an English word. The connection to _goy_ (I’m not going to spell it out in Hebrew) is so remote that there’s no way to call it still Jewish (and I’m eliding the Jewish/Hebrew distinction here, as well as the Jewish/Hebrew/Yiddish distinction). I do agree that when words are commonly adopted (or borrowed) into another language, they become part of that language at least to some extent. I think there’s a big difference between, say, _chauffeur_ or even _rodeo_, which are the same words in their original language, and _gentile_, which is really an entirely different word. (And in Hebrew, it wouldn’t be _bar mitzvot_ to be plural, it would be _b’nei mitzvah_. Everyone I know says “b’nei mitzvah.” Do people really say “bar mitzvahs”? It sounds awfully funny to me, and I don’t know that I’ve ever heard it. But that’s really not all that relevant, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/64 "2022-10-19T19:51:34Z")
> [@Joeu](#): > > Do people really say “bar mitzvahs”? Yes, because the term _bar mitzvah_ has been imported to American English and now English rules apply. ---
**Author:** ![Joeu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joeu/32/2911_2.png) [@Joeu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joeu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/65 "2022-10-19T19:55:12Z")
OK. That’s news to me. I’ve never heard that usage. Maybe I need to broaden my circle of conversation! 😀 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/66 "2022-10-19T20:02:28Z")
Hang out with more _goyim_ and you’re sure to hear “mitzvahs”. Although even this _goy_ knows enough to not say “goys”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Reeses\_Monkey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reeses_monkey/32/2885_2.png) [@Reeses\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeses_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/67 "2022-10-20T00:16:54Z")
My godmother’s maiden name is Gentile. Make of that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/68 "2022-10-20T00:19:26Z")
They even call Jews Gentiles, because they’re not Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/69 "2022-10-20T02:17:12Z")
Somehow I missed post 27 - sorry ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/70 "2022-10-20T02:50:40Z")
“Gentile” is an English version of a Latin word especially made up to translate “goy”. (“Seer” is an English word especially made up to translate a Hebrew word, too.) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/71 "2022-10-20T03:44:12Z")
I do not know much about Yiddish or Judaism, but I agree with @Chronos that it would be odd if, given a random language, there were no word meaning “foreigner”. Hypothetically, in a xenophobic environment, talk of outsiders may not be neutral, though. Hebrew has plenty of words, not sure how neutral they are or if they take on extra significance in a Jewish context: ger = immigrant nokhri = foreigner zar = stranger goy = people, nation [in a Jewish context, a non-Jew, as has been mentioned] plenty of derogatory terms, too, e.g. kofer = infidel Are any of these more fascinating than corresponding Hindi terms or English terms? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/72 "2022-10-20T11:26:19Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > but is just a more casual way of saying foreigner. Just a nitpick because I hate people getting the wrong impression of Japan. ‘Gaijin’ is not the same as ‘foreigner’ in meaning or use. How often do people around you in the USA say the word ‘foreigner’. It’s pretty rare. But in Japan it is used very frequently because it is a way to re-enforce social cohesion, in an us vs them way. Also an American would beg off calling a US citizen a ‘foreigner’ usually. But you can be a citizen of Japan and still be a ‘gaijin’. It’s not about citizenship, or race either because you could be of Japanese lineage but raised overseas or be half Japanese and still be ‘gaijin’. ‘Gaijin’ means ‘you/they don’t look, talk or act like us’. We don’t know what you like/dislike, we cannot predict your behavior or what goes on in your minds. It is extreme othering (for a political purpose, I think). Just the other day I saw a text book explaining how to handle autistic kids saying " these kids are like gaijin, they cannot think correctly or follow rules. In the amazon comments section were basically just “this book was easy to understand”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/73 "2022-10-20T12:26:59Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > it would be odd if, given a random language, there were no word meaning “foreigner”. “Foreigner” does not have a specific “them, not us” meaning. Even in English, it doesn’t automatically mean “anybody who isn’t American.” Sentence 1: “Foreigners in Borneo are often confused by local traditions.” Sentence 2: “Goyim in Borneo are often confused by local traditions.” In #1, I might mean “all people who are not from Borneo.” Or I might mean “Americans in Borneo” if I’m giving a lecture to a group of American students preparing to travel abroad. Or British students. Or whatever. Sentence #2 clearly means “people who are not Jewish,” full stop. It, like other cultural _othering_ phrases, is a much more precise and exclusionary word than foreigner is. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/74 "2022-10-20T12:36:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > ger = immigrant > nokhri = foreigner > zar = stranger > goy = people, nation [in a Jewish context, a non-Jew, as has been mentioned] A few notes: “Ger” actually means a convert to Judaism; the word for immigrant is “mehager”. “Nochri” is archaic. “Zar” does double service as both stranger and foreigner, depending on context - and the term “adam zar” (or similar terms) is often used to stress that the person in question is a strange person and not neccessary from a forein country. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/75 "2022-10-20T13:20:48Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > I think the negative connotation here is more the tone than the word used. Absolutely. If ‘Bless their heart’ can be used in a derogatory manner, anything can. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/76 "2022-10-20T13:21:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > “Foreigner” does not have a specific “them, not us” meaning. Even in English, it doesn’t automatically mean “anybody who isn’t American.” “Even in English”? “Foreigner” is an English word. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/77 "2022-10-20T13:24:46Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > “Even in English”? “Foreigner” is an English word. Yes, as I explained in the example immediately following that sentence you quoted. The word does not have a built-in “us” and “them” grouping. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/78 "2022-10-20T13:26:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Yes, as I explained in the example immediately following that sentence you quoted. The word does not have a built-in “us” and “them” grouping. I’m just confused as to what you mean by “even in English”. Is it a word in any other language? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/79 "2022-10-20T13:34:11Z")
I see. I likely meant “even in America, it doesn’t automatically mean 'anybody who isn’t American.” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433/80 "2022-10-20T13:34:55Z")
Thanks for the clarification! It may be archaic, but I was thinking of well-known phrases like, “וַתֵּ֣לֶד בֵּ֔ן וַיִּקְרָ֥א אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ גֵּרְשֹׁ֑ם כִּ֣י אָמַ֔ר גֵּ֣ר הָיִ֔יתִי בְּאֶ֖רֶץ נָכְרִיָּֽה” , which, interestingly enough, seems to be translated using the same word twice as “And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.” [BDB defines “ger” as sojourner, temporary dweller, newcomer with no inherited rights; also used specifically for dwellers in Israel with certain conceded, not inherited rights, whence (I assume) converts to Judaism (eg Exodus 12:19 ?). Not sure precisely where it stands on the “us” vs “them” scale] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-jewish-word-like-gentile-is-not-derogatory-are-there-other-cultures-language-with-such-word-s/973433.md?page=5)