# Assuming that one racial group is on average smarter than another, so what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266 "2011-09-05T14:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/21 "2011-09-05T17:39:38Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Historically, it is certain that many people have been discriminated against for no other reason than being a member of an identifiable group. There is no way they can prove individual discrimination, and in fact they are not being discriminated against as individuals. It’s _difficult_ to prove, not impossible. To begin with some people aren’t that subtle and leave evidences or witnesses. Other people might also denounce them. A method that is fine with me, and has recently been allowed as evidence in French courts (don’t know about other countries) is “testing”. For instance, send a nice black, well-dressed, couple to a club. If they aren’t let in (too many people in already, whatever), send a similar nice, well dressed _white_ couple. If those are let in, rinse and repeat. Do the whole thing with a sworn in witness (don’t know if you have those in anglo-saxon countries but I guess you could find some equivalent). If there’s a clear pattern, go to court. Generally, since discrimination is difficult to prove, I favor heavy punishments for it. Even if they aren’t themselves racists, business owners (a club in my example, but it might be a house rental business, for instance) can have strong incentives to discriminate (people might not want to come in a club with too many “arabs” or someone might not afford to lose the business of a prejudiced landlord) and the risk of being caught is very low. So, those incentives should pale in comparison with the consequences of being caught. For instance, the culprit could be barred from operating a business for a very long time, a massive fine be levied on the business, and the specific person or people who discriminated (the house rental business owner/operator/employee as well as the racist landlord) send to do some comparative race behavioral studies behind walls and bars. The sought after result being to hear your typical agent saying : “Hmmm…Sir, I’d rather have you bring your business to my competitor on the other side of the street” Note that on the other hand I’m strongly opposed to positive discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/22 "2011-09-05T17:54:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > However, given what people are, I think the results of such an information would be totally disastrous. If I were master of the world and heard about such a thing being proven, I’d likely order a total blackout and forbid the public release of the data. I wonder if that is a difference between European and American sensibilities. I can’t imagine that idea getting traction in the US. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/23 "2011-09-05T18:07:56Z")
> [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](#): > > It’s not proof of discrimination, but it does raise the possibility that discrimination may have happened. I’m not sure what you mean by “raise the possibility.” Given the hypothesis in the original post, it’s completely within the range of normal expectations if there is no discrimination. And the bottom line question is what society should do in such a situation. Should the employer or school be put through the expense of a civil rights investigation? Should they be pressured to change their standards so that more blacks will be accepted? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/24 "2011-09-05T18:11:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wonder if that is a difference between European and American sensibilities. Not sure, but I doubt it. Rather a personal sensibility, I think. I just have a relatively low level of confidence in people, and would expect the worst from most of them if they were handed data to feed their prejudices (or even to create prejudices). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/25 "2011-09-05T18:17:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “raise the possibility.” Given the hypothesis in the original post, it’s completely within the range of normal expectations if there is no discrimination. > > And the bottom line question is what society should do in such a situation. Should the employer or school be put through the expense of a civil rights investigation? Should they be pressured to change their standards so that more blacks will be accepted? [Looks at the bill of rights] Yes to the first question, no to the second. AFAIU it is harder now to change standards and not to expect a reverse discrimination lawsuit, eternal vigilance is still needed to ensure that people follow the law both in favor of the minority and the majority. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/26 "2011-09-05T18:18:21Z")
Also, note that the current US president is black, not white, despite genetical and educational evidences to the contrary. Once he won’t be black anymore, I’ll consider releasing the data. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/27 "2011-09-05T18:24:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Does it still raise that possibility if, as per the OP, that’s actually a bit better than you’d expect, on average? There are many possible ways to explain those hypothetical test results. IQ disparities along racial lines seems one of the least likely explanations. They may exist, but they obviously aren’t huge differences that prevent one race from competing at all with another race. We know racial discrimination exists, and we want to avoid it as much as possible to have top-quality fire departments. So in this case you’ll want to do some work to find out is discrimination is at play here. Also, you’d look at how you are recruiting potential firefighters, in order to get the best quality recruits from a variety of demographic areas. If a good-faith effort is made in both of those areas, then you just take the best potential firefighters. You don’t even have to worry about whether there are inherent IQ differences between races in that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/28 "2011-09-05T19:37:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Let’s assume that it has been demonstrated that Group A has a lower average IQ than Group B, even accounting for cultural factors. > > So what? What use is this information? You can’t transfer the assumptions from the general to the specific, so it tells you nothing about whether a specific member of Group A is more or less intelligent than you. You can’t make public policy decisions based on it. You can’t base educational practice on it. About all it’s good for is to make members of Group B feel marginally superior to members of Group A based on what is essentially a tribal affiliation basis (Go Group B! Rah!), and even then this will only really matter to those who are desperate enough to have their existences validated that they must cling to statistical trivia with no practical application. > > I’m not looking to rehash the arguments of a few dozen other threads about whether such a difference actually exists. I just want to know what the point of it all is. The only meaningful difference would be that when you saw differential outcomes on color-blind tests/assessments for two groups in hiring, education, performance, you would eschew any impulse to treat the outcomes as discriminatory rather than diagnostic, and thus you would eschew any impulse to implement “remedies” to address the (non-existent) discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/29 "2011-09-05T20:01:51Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > The only meaningful difference would be that when you saw differential outcomes on color-blind tests/assessments for two groups in hiring, education, performance, you would eschew any impulse to treat the outcomes as discriminatory rather than diagnostic, and thus you would eschew any impulse to implement “remedies” to address the (non-existent) discrimination. What about when actual discrimination takes place? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/30 "2011-09-05T20:09:56Z")
Out of curiosity: Has there been any survey recently that asked people what they thought of minorities relative to IQ? I _do_ agree that lowering test score standards for any minority applicant is a horrific practice - it contributes to racial tensions and exasperates bad stereotypes, not to mention its backwards and racist (and ethnocentric on part of the white elite). If my [chances of getting into Harvard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States) as a black student just gave me significant advantage over white kids with much higher scores, what does that say about black Harvard graduates? I can say that Asian kids who get in to Harvard must be the creme de la creme, because that will work against you. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/31 "2011-09-05T20:10:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What about when actual discrimination takes place? I hope you’re not fighting the hypothetical here as some are (the OP asked us to assume that there are genuine intelligence differences – the existence of disparities in test scores, etc., on racially neutral tests, is not, then, in itself proof or even a suggestion of discrimination, any more than different 40 yard dash times is proof that the 40 yard dash is discriminatory). So if you’re not, and if you mean that there is actual disparate treatment of equally objectively qualified people – that is, two guys run the 40 yard dash neck and neck, but for some malicious reason, the timing guy clicks the stopwatch a second later for guy B – than you’d address it the same way you address any other bad hiring/promotion decision – on a case by case basis. Oh, it turns out Manager X favored candidate A over candidate B because A was his brother in law? Well, that violates our anti-nepotism policies, we’re going to have to re-consider the hiring decision and potentially discipline X. Same for racial discrimination or any other non-qualification-related discrimination. Businesses and so forth, of course, have little systemic incentive to hire unqualified people when they could hire qualified people for the same rate, so this will be a comparatively rare problem. My point being, you wouldn’t imagine businesses enacting affirmative programs to seek out and give preference to people who had no familial or relational connection at all with the company as a means of furthering an anti-nepotism policy; why would one imagine doing so for irrational racial discrimination either? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/32 "2011-09-05T20:47:28Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > My point being, you wouldn’t imagine businesses enacting affirmative programs to seek out and give preference to people who had no familial or relational connection at all with the company as a means of furthering an anti-nepotism policy; why would one imagine doing so for irrational racial discrimination either? I’m going to assume you don’t mean that there exists _rational_ racial discrimination. As to your question, if I understand it correctly, then here is my answer: because it was common in the past, and apparently [still occurs](http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html). ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/33 "2011-09-06T02:07:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Let’s assume that it has been demonstrated that Group A has a lower average IQ than Group B, even accounting for cultural factors. > > So what? What use is this information? You can’t transfer the assumptions from the general to the specific, so it tells you nothing about whether a specific member of Group A is more or less intelligent than you. You can’t make public policy decisions based on it. You can avoid policies that assume that there should be equal group representation and assume discrimination or unfairness when that doesn’t happen (see below). Instead, I agree you should simply treat people as individuals and avoid looking at their group background. [http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking\_news/2010/01/mit\_lags\_in\_hir.html](http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/01/mit_lags_in_hir.html) > **[Twenty-one Oxbridge colleges took no black students last year](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/dec/06/oxford-colleges-no-black-students)** > > Bleak portrait of racial and social exclusion at Oxbridge institutions revealed by Labour MP David Lammy's FoI request ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/34 "2011-09-06T06:18:57Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Exactly. The pseudoscience is just a smokescreen for the attack. Pseudoscience? I look forward to hearing you explain this on the other [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=622273) **Belowjob2.0**. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/35 "2011-09-06T08:51:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Depends on how big the delta is between the median and how big the standard deviation is. > > But in general, yes, we shouldn’t do anything differently as a matter of public policy, which should be geared to individuals and not groups. Note, however, that racial prejudice among the general populace of Group B against Group A is going to increase, since they have science behind them, in a manner of speaking. Most people don’t understand statistics. I think this thread is already demonstrating this nicely. > [@Chen019](#): > > You can avoid policies that assume that there should be equal group representation and assume discrimination or unfairness when that doesn’t happen (see below). Instead, I agree you should simply treat people as individuals and avoid looking at their group background. Tell you what: I’ll stop automatically assuming that there **is** discrimination if you stop automatically assuming that there **isn’t**. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/36 "2011-09-06T09:21:58Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I think this thread is already demonstrating this nicely. > > Tell you what: I’ll stop automatically assuming that there **is** discrimination if you stop automatically assuming that there **isn’t**. The problem is assuming that unequal proportions are prima facie evidence of discrimination. In fact, based on test results, you wouldn’t expect equal proportions from different ethnic groups. That’s a point that Professor Amy Wax makes. She proposes either adjusting disparate impact rule to reflect statistical differences, or abolishing it. > [@](#): > > The so-called 4/5 rule, under which an employer is presumptively liable if the percentage of minority applicants hired is less than 80% of those selected from the majority white population, reflects this assumption…These observations bode ill for employers’ efforts to comply with the disparate impact rule. The present reality of group differences, and the intransigence of the diversity-validity tradeoff, mean that even modestly useful personnel selection criteria will screen out too many minorities most of the time. Achieving racial imbalance will prove difficult or impossible for jobs that are moderately selective, and imposing even mildly demanding skill-based hurdles will often produce a workforce that leaves employers vulnerable to a disparate impact challenge. > > The proposal advanced here is that disparate impact law should be revised to reflect group disparities currently measured in actual on-the-job performance… > … > > The principal argument for repealing disparate impact is that, under present social conditions, racial imbalances in employment are exceedingly weak evidence of discrimination, either in the form of race-based disparate treatment or through unlawful disparate impact. > > The IOP data indicate that differences in the distribution of skill and human capital, not race-based exclusion or arbitrary barriers to employment, are the principal factors behind racial imbalances on the job. In light of these realities, the disparate impact rule is fatally overbroad and ensnares far too much conduct in its net. Under current social conditions, the vast majority of commonly employed selection procedures are valid and job related, and thus do not actually violate the disparate impact rule. Yet most personnel practices will routinely show enough adverse impact to create a prima facie case of discrimination, thereby shifting the burden of justification to employers. [Wax, Amy L., “Disparate Impact Realism“. Scholarship at Penn Law. Paper 361](https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/disparate-impact-realism-1.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/37 "2011-09-06T09:40:04Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The problem is assuming that unequal proportions are prima facie evidence of discrimination. In fact, based on test results, you wouldn’t expect equal proportions from different ethnic groups. Except that you’re excluding the middle ground between “It’s evidence of discrimination” and “It’s not evidence of discrimination” which is “It’s evidence of _potential_ discrimination”. If an employer is only hiring white guys there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for it or he might be a white supremacist but I’d want to dig further before coming to either conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/38 "2011-09-06T09:44:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Except that you’re excluding the middle ground between “It’s evidence of discrimination” and “It’s not evidence of discrimination” which is “It’s evidence of _potential_ discrimination”. If an employer is only hiring white guys there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for it or he might be a white supremacist but I’d want to dig further before coming to either conclusion. Well, the 4/5 rule is only evidence of potential discrimination. Wax’s point is that unfortunately the most predictive job tests often invariably will lead to compliance issues because of group differences. So if you’re looking for a policy implication, it would be in relation to that. She discusses the Ricci case which is a classic example. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/39 "2011-09-06T11:21:22Z")
There are plenty of (disgusting) policies you can justify with this. Why fix US schools? Black people are never going to learn anyway, so why use our limited education funds trying to get people in the inner city to university? If they are destined for a life of servitude, so why give them the same kind of education we expect for our kids? If we give them an education based on job skills, that should be enough. Intermarriage is now a bad thing. A white person who has children with a black person is dooming their child to a statistical likelihood of being less intelligent. Why would you do that to your child, and to the world as a whole. Better that people stick to their own. There is no need to be outraged at black prison rates or other social problems in the black community. These can all be explained by intelligence. It doesn’t show structural problems in society, but rather that black people are barely able to function on their own. Which is also, incidentally, a good argument for keeping races separate in living situations, and perhaps increasing police surveillance and restricting freedoms. It’s all gross. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266/40 "2011-09-06T12:47:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There are plenty of (disgusting) policies you can justify with this. > > Why fix US schools? Black people are never going to learn anyway, “Black people are never going to learn anyway” is not the same thing as “black people are less intelligent, in general and on average.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-that-one-racial-group-is-on-average-smarter-than-another-so-what/595266.md?page=3)