# Assuming the war eventually ends in Ukraine’s favor, with all of Ukraine being back in rightful hands, is there any aspect of international law that would prevent the government from expelling those that are pro-Russian? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280 "2023-05-19T15:17:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/1 "2023-05-19T15:17:41Z")
Assuming the war eventually ends in Ukraine’s favor, with all of Ukraine being back in rightful hands, is there any aspect of international law that would prevent the government from expelling those that are pro-Russian? Given Russia’s willingness to use pro-Russian sentiment as a justification for war, I would think that doing so would be an imperative for national security. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/2 "2023-05-19T15:21:22Z")
I moved this question to its own thread as it was not breaking news at all and likely to hijack the breaking news thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/3 "2023-05-19T15:24:37Z")
Ethnic Cleansing, even in the interest of national security, is frowned upon. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/4 "2023-05-19T15:30:13Z")
International law doesn’t really mean anything, sadly - it all boils down to practical consequences. I could see Ukraine’s allies reducing aid to Ukraine as leverage. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/5 "2023-05-19T15:31:20Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > is there any aspect of international law that would prevent the government from expelling those that are pro-Russian? Apparently, part of the UN definition of “genocide” is the forced removal of a particular group or ethnicity. (Personally, I feel like there should be some murder involved to get the “genocide” label but, I suppose, forced marches had a high enough death rate that it seemed reasonable to include, when you look back at history.) ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/6 "2023-05-19T15:32:10Z")
Yes. Fair point. Didn’t think this question all the way through before I posted. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/7 "2023-05-19T15:36:49Z")
Whether an event is officially considered a genocide and steps taken against it depends entirely on how sympathetically the victims are viewed. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/8 "2023-05-19T15:38:25Z")
There is a lot of leeway for those that aided and abetted Russian troops in anyway. So it is partially possible I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/9 "2023-05-19T15:39:31Z")
Actually, I can’t find that definition in the Genocide Convention… Maybe I was conflating it with ethnic cleansing, or there was a followup to the Convention (?). At any rate, there’s this: [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Geneva\_Convention/Fourth\_Geneva\_Convention#Article\_49](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Article_49) There’s also Article 7 of the Rome Statutes: [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/icc-statute-1998/article-7](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/icc-statute-1998/article-7) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/10 "2023-05-19T15:41:22Z")
Like it or not Ukraine has a minority who identify as Russian. To start expelling people after winning a war, that would be one way for the EU and NATO to rethink their relationship with Ukraine. Think if Israel started outright expelling Palestinians (or Arab Israelis). They’d be a pariah state. Edit: Another real-life example is how the world reacted to Myanmar’s naked [treatment and expulsion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Myanmar) of their Muslim Rohingya population; Myanmar is an isolated/rouge state and Wikipedia has it listed as a [Genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/11 "2023-05-19T15:53:24Z")
Russia has been deporting Ukrainians in occupied territory. Children are sent to Russian families I’m not sure how many Ukrainians are left in Donbas. It may be a very bad strategy for Ukraine to act as occupiers and expell Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/12 "2023-05-19T16:02:59Z")
The OP never mentioned genocide, or removing anyone of Russian ethnicity. The said “pro-Russia”. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/13 "2023-05-19T16:10:00Z")
Try to come up with a practical way that this would actually play out in real life, and accept those consequences, and you have arrived at a 100% understanding of how wartime atrocities are justified. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/14 "2023-05-19T16:13:39Z")
Yes, but: 1. In practice all the deported would end up having Russian ethnicity. 2. Deporting people for their political opinions is still wrong, even if it’s not “Ethnic” cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/15 "2023-05-19T16:13:44Z")
There are precedents: Poland, Czechoslovakia and the USSR all expelled ethnic Germans in the immediate aftermath of WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/16 "2023-05-19T16:14:21Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > The said “pro-Russia”. Article 7 is the most directly applicable and it specifies: “Persecution against **any identifiable group** or collectivity on **political** , racial, national, ethnic, **cultural** , religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, **or other grounds** ” That said, it also specifies: “For the purpose of this Statute, “crime against humanity” means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any **civilian population** ” Ukraine could, conceivably, lock up Russian soldiers and prosecute them, so long as it can make some sort of argument that they’re soldiers. But they would still be limited to POW rules. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war) But if Russia encouraged Russian citizens to move into the region, during the occupational period, then those people are are civilians and that runs foul of ethnic cleansing rules. (Of course, it also runs foul of illegal immigration rules. Ukraine could make an “illegal immigrant” claim and deport them, denying any retributionist intention.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/17 "2023-05-19T16:21:28Z")
It’s an ongoing issue in the Baltic states, because of the numbers of Russians who moved to them during the Soviet occupation: > **[Russians in the Baltic states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_the_Baltic_states)** > > Russians in the Baltic states is a broadly defined subgroup of the Russian diaspora who self-identify as ethnic Russians, or are citizens of Russia, and live in one of the three independent countries – Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. As of 2021, there were nearly 900,000 ethnic Russians in the three countries, having declined from ca 1.7 million in 1989, the year of the last census during the 1944–1991 Soviet occupation of the three Baltic countries. > Most of the present-day Baltic Russians are... ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/18 "2023-05-19T17:02:19Z")
Guess what. It’s happening now. > **[Situation in Ukraine: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir...](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and)** > > Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna... > Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute). Putin is acting as if the law doesn’t apply to him. That’s totally fair. The law _doesn’t_ apply to him. Russia doesn’t recognize the ICC. There is no international law. If there were, the United States - and most other major powers - would have violated it ten thousand times. The entire global economy would be subsumed by the millions of lawyers necessary to prosecute a million simultaneous cases. The rest of the population would need to be police officers and prison guards. In the real world, losers lose. Anyone taken down by a coup or a war is susceptible to - horrors - a fair trial after a long period of evidence gathering, should they live long enough to let the process work out. If the major powers decide they want a trial. If the major powers aren’t shielding the perpetrator in exile. If a lot of things. Never read science fiction. It’s full of world governments and global agreement. That sort of otherworldly nonsense can warp impressionable minds. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/19 "2023-05-19T17:07:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The law _doesn’t_ apply to him. Russia doesn’t recognize the ICC. It should be noted that neither does the USA. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280/20 "2023-05-19T17:20:59Z")
Seems that shipping the Russians that moved to Crimea at the urging of the Russian Government [Hey, move here, free land!] would be legitemate to ship back to Russia [no not by cannon, Mythbusters demonstrated you can’t launch a human with gunpowder and have them live] but the ones that moved there back when it was still the USSR can’t be shifted. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-the-war-eventually-ends-in-ukraine-s-favor-with-all-of-ukraine-being-back-in-rightful-hands-is-there-any-aspect-of-international-law-that-would-prevent-the-government-from-expelling-those-that-are-pro-russian/984280.md?page=2)