# Assuming we limp away from Iraq debacle at some point, what lessons do we take away? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525 "2004-05-22T15:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/41 "2004-05-24T02:07:13Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > If I may, I forgot one: > > _ **Never elect a Texan to the White House.** _ The Shrub’s a Yankee Carpetbagger. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/42 "2004-05-24T02:48:18Z")
That was more true of his dad than it is of him. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/43 "2004-05-24T03:13:36Z")
1. In the era of global instant media and the internet, it is very hard to fight a war because every screwup, every setback, every ambush, will be splattered all over the media and agonized over and used as propaganda by those against the war. If WWII had been fought in this media environment, images of D-Day, with American bodies floating in the surf, landings in the wrong spot, commandos dropping in the wrong places, and thousands of casualties would have had half of America screaming to bring the boys home. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/44 "2004-05-24T03:33:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > 1. In the era of global instant media and the internet, it is very hard to fight a war because every screwup, every setback, every ambush, will be splattered all over the media and agonized over and used as propaganda by those against the war. > > If WWII had been fought in this media environment, images of D-Day, with American bodies floating in the surf, landings in the wrong spot, commandos dropping in the wrong places, and thousands of casualties would have had half of America screaming to bring the boys home. … **Sam** , are you honestly saying that it is better to deny free press coverage, black out the news, and have only the government controlling the flow of information? Cover up anything that might look bad? Or am I totally misunderstanding you? Because that sounds SO nuts… ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/45 "2004-05-24T03:36:09Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > 1. That we should cut off all international aid. Let the people we supply with incredible amounts of capital and food/energy aid simmer until they realize that we don’t do business with people that hate us. Yeah…After all, those Danes who spend quite a bit more as a percentage of GDP than the pretty piddly percentage that we do are reviled the world over! As for the rest of your post, how whiny can you get? It reminds me of a little kid who has to have things his way or doesn’t want to play at all! ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/46 "2004-05-24T03:41:08Z")
> [@Master Wang-Ka](#): > > … **Sam** , are you honestly saying that it is better to deny free press coverage, black out the news, and have only the government controlling the flow of information? Cover up anything that might look bad? Or am I totally misunderstanding you? Because that sounds SO nuts… Hey, it’s the libertarian way! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/47 "2004-05-24T04:14:58Z")
**Sam** , that’s got to be the stupidest comment I’ve seen in a long long time. Was it the media that caused General Tommy Franks to call neocon Doug Feith the "’‘the f—ing stupidest guy on the face of the earth’’? ([http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0520-02.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0520-02.htm)) Was it the media that makes General Zinni, head of Centcom until 2000, to say… > [@](#): > > “Somebody has screwed up. And at this level and at this stage, it should be evident to everybody that they’ve screwed up. And whose heads are rolling on this? That’s what bothers me most,” Zinni said without naming names. > Zinni, commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command from 1997 to 2000, said planning for the Iraq war and its aftermath had been flawed from the start. > Zinni’s scathing critique of the Pentagon and its handling of the war in Iraq are included in a new book about his career, co-written by Tom Clancy, called “Battle Ready,” CBS reported. > **[Breaking International News & Views](https://www.reuters.com/)** And if you think Tom Clancy is a dupe of the media, you’re definitely living on a different planet. This is a disaster as of now. Virtually everyone knows it. The media is not to blame. That’s the last argument of a bankrupt position. Always has been, always will be. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/48 "2004-05-24T04:46:02Z")
and there are dupers, but they ain’t in the media: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – The Defense Intelligence Agency has concluded that a U.S.-funded arm of Ahmed Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress has been used for years by Iranian intelligence to pass disinformation to the United States and to collect highly sensitive American secrets, according to intelligence sources. > “Iranian intelligence has been manipulating the United States through Chalabi by furnishing through his Information Collection Program information to provoke the United States into getting rid of Saddam Hussein,” said an intelligence source who was briefed on the DIA’s conclusions, which were based on a review of thousands of internal documents… > Patrick Lang, former director of the DIA’s Middle East branch, said he had been told by colleagues in the intelligence community that Chalabi’s U.S.-funded program to provide information about weapons of mass destruction and insurgents was effectively an Iranian intelligence operation. “They (the Iranians) knew exactly what we were up to,” he said. [US Fooled by Iraq Agency it Funded](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2585597) If it turns out that the Bush Administration effectively allowed itself to be duped by Iranian intelligence, well, a lot of people are going to be toast. Very burnt toast. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/49 "2004-05-24T05:23:35Z")
> [@](#): > > …Sam, are you honestly saying that it is better to deny free press coverage, black out the news, and have only the government controlling the flow of information? Cover up anything that might look bad? Or am I totally misunderstanding you? Because that sounds SO nuts… Now where did you get that impression? It was a simple statement of fact. I did not make any suggestions as to what should be done about it. It’s not even a particularly original observation. People said much the same thing after Somalia, when images of Americans being dragged through the streets caused a huge shift in support for that conflict. For that matter, some have said that the media coverage of Vietnam had the same effect. It was the first war played out on televisions around the world. This changes things. This is simply the new reality, and military planners and civilian leaders are going to have to take this effect into account. Perhaps the conclusion to be drawn is that if you’re going to fight a war you’d better fight it fast, before the barrage of horrific images turns the public against it. Or perhaps the conclusion is that if you’re going to fight a war, you had better make sure that you have a huge percentage of the public behind it. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/50 "2004-05-24T06:00:27Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Perhaps the conclusion to be drawn is that if you’re going to fight a war you’d better fight it fast, before the barrage of horrific images turns the public against it. Or perhaps the conclusion is that if you’re going to fight a war, you had better make sure that you have a huge percentage of the public behind it. Whatever. That’s a brilliant idea, **Sam**. All you need to do now is to come up with a catchy title for it. I suggest “Powell Doctrine”. It’s amazing that no-one ever thought of it before. The Admin really should’ve gone to you for advice, 'cause AFAIK, no-one else said anything even remotely like this in the lead up to the war. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/51 "2004-05-24T06:15:29Z")
“The Powell Doctrine” has nothing to say about the effects of media on a nation’s will to fight. Look, the OP asked a question. I gave an answer. It’s not an original idea with me, and I said so. Why do you need to go on about this? ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/52 "2004-05-24T16:50:28Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > 1. In the era of global instant media and the internet, it is very hard to fight a war because every screwup, every setback, every ambush, will be splattered all over the media and agonized over and used as propaganda by those against the war. > > If WWII had been fought in this media environment, images of D-Day, with American bodies floating in the surf, landings in the wrong spot, commandos dropping in the wrong places, and thousands of casualties would have had half of America screaming to bring the boys home. I agree with Sam on this one, but I think the reason is a growing _perception_ among the public that, because of the technology and “smart bombs”, wars nowadays can be fought without significant casualties. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/53 "2004-05-24T17:26:26Z")
Nope, that gives the people too little credit. There were pictures of D-Day, accounts of the fighting by reporters who were there, screwups included. Do you think that most people didn’t have radios, or access to LIFE and other such magazines, or to letters home by family members in the service? They knew. By 1944, there was no lack of understanding by the American public of the unavoidable human costs of the war. But the cost was accepted because the goal of the war was so valuable, so necessary, so, well, noble that it was worth it. Screwups happen, yes, they knew it, but that can be tolerated if they’re understood and learned from and not repeated and don’t prevent the larger goals from being attained. Even so, there was a very strong isolationist movement all along, one that kept a low profile after Pearl Harbor for fear of being thought unpatriotic, but re-emerged immediately after VJ Day. They had a lot to do with the “bring the boys home” spirit that pervaded the immediate post-surrender period. It would be fairer to say that we’ll accept the costs of a necessary war, but not of an unnecessary or even incompetently-fought one. We’ll allow our servicepeople’s lives to be spent to the extent necessary and no further, and they agree to that too, but we refuse to allow them to be wasted. The Iraq war was widely, and now generally, known to have been created under false pretenses, with an illusory goal, and the leadership has shown no ability to even recognize much less learn from its mistakes. That makes every life lost in it a \*wasted \* one and not a carefully spent one, unlike in the first Gulf War. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/54 "2004-05-24T17:47:06Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > George the First looks pretty damn good to me now in hindsight, and frankly I think he had a handle on international relations. I voted for him once, supported him thru the Gulf War, and cheered when he declined to roll into Baghdad, thus **delaying** our current scenario by about 14 years. “Delaying” is an operative term there. Let’s not forget that GW2 most likely wouldn’t happen without GW1, when Bush Sr. decided to teach Saddam a lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/55 "2004-05-24T20:04:21Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > “Delaying” is an operative term there. Let’s not forget that GW2 most likely wouldn’t happen without GW1, when Bush Sr. decided to teach Saddam a lesson. A lesson? Sure, after Saddam invaded Kuwait. Remember that we had, through skillful diplomacy so different from what went on this time, a true coalition with most of the world and full UN support. My list of lessons is 1. Bush Sr. and Powell were a lot smarter than the neocons gave them credit for. 2. If at the top level you dehumanize a set of people (like calling anyone you pick up a terrorist without a trial) don’t be suprised if the bottom level people act accordingly. 3. No matter how you ignore reality, avoid reading the papers, and believe in following your dogma instead of boring old pragmatism, the real world will slap you in the face eventually. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/56 "2004-05-24T22:38:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A lesson? Sure, after Saddam invaded Kuwait. Remember that we had, through skillful diplomacy so different from what went on this time, a true coalition with most of the world and full UN support. And what did it get us? Protracted pain in the rear that had to be taken care of eventually, that’s what. Perhaps one of the lessons is that when you go against some nasty, prepare to go all the way, or do not start at all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/57 "2004-05-24T23:12:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And what did it get us? Protracted pain in the rear that had to be taken care of eventually, that’s what. > > Perhaps one of the lessons is that when you go against some nasty, prepare to go all the way, or do not start at all. What pain? Nothing compared to what we went through during the Cold War, which ended pretty well, remember. Iraqis were in pain, true, but they’re in pain now also. At the time the war started we had UN inspectors crawling all over Iraq, which was likely to reduce the worst of the atrocities, at least. Eventually this would have either neutralized the problem, caused a coup, or forced Saddam to do something so blatant that we would have been able to invade with UN backing. Instead we got policy dictated by the fantasies of the neocons. No wonder Chalabi was able to take them for a ride, those with stars in their eyes are easy prey for con artists. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/58 "2004-05-24T23:29:28Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > 1. In the era of global instant media and the internet, it is very hard to fight a war because every screwup, every setback, every ambush, will be splattered all over the media and agonized over and used as propaganda by those against the war. > > If WWII had been fought in this media environment, images of D-Day, with American bodies floating in the surf, landings in the wrong spot, commandos dropping in the wrong places, and thousands of casualties would have had half of America screaming to bring the boys home. Americans back in WW2 were prepared of the ‘All-costs’ prospect of fighting Germany. As long as the outcomes were favorable in Europe and the Pacific, no sacrifice was too large, and the mourning would have to wait. Now, we aren’t even told to sacrifice. Just keep on pumping gas in our SUVs. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/59 "2004-05-24T23:32:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Eventually this would have either neutralized the problem, caused a coup, or forced Saddam to do something so blatant that we would have been able to invade with UN backing. What might that Saddam “blatant” action be? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525/60 "2004-05-25T01:14:10Z")
**Sam Stone** does raise a bit of a valid point. While WWII had near thorough public support on the home front especially when compared to the present Iraq mess, access to visual images of the fighting were tightly controlled by the Office of War Information for reasons of morale in an era of newsreels and print journalism to a degree no longer possible in the era of the internet, or for that matter cable or even network news. From the prologue of [The Censored War](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300062915/qid=1085442547/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3651646-8914202?v=glance&s=books): > [@](#): > > In the spring of 1945, amid celebrations marking the end of World War II in Europe, the blood of an American soldier was first shed on the pages of _Life_ magazine. Editors preserved the anonymity of the dead G.I. by blocking out his face in the series of photographs by Robert Capa that documented his final minutes, but in a few a pool of blood next to the body remained conspicuously in view. Earlier in the war these photographs would have been concealed in a file, known to its keepers as the “Chamber of Horrors,” maintained in the newly created Pentagon. By September 1943 concerns about public complacency led officials to release from this grim achieve photographs that showed death, but not yet bloody death. The public was of course aware that Americans were dying in the fighting, but the first picture of a dead American the general public saw was probably the photo from [here](http://www.pbs.org/ktca/americanphotography/features/war_essay1.html) captioned “George Strock. Dead GI’s on Buna Beach, 1943.” By this point the US had been in the war nearly two years. While I seriously doubt that the public would have been screaming to get out of the war in World War II if the media environment in the 1940s was what it is today, the government controlled access to what was seen for morale purposes to a level that it can’t in this day and age. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assuming-we-limp-away-from-iraq-debacle-at-some-point-what-lessons-do-we-take-away/246525.md?page=4)