# Assumption that smaller class sizes = better student achievement turns out not to be true. What now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041 "2010-07-17T16:58:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041/21 "2010-08-02T18:47:04Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > As you delve deeper into the morass that is the US public school system, only one theme becomes crystal clear: nobody knows. Study after study contradicts study after study. For every example, there’s a counter-example. For every success, there’s 100 failures doing the exact same thing. > > In my grad program, the theme was: for the last 100 years, the problem with education has been the focus on pedagogy: how the class was taught and who taught it. However, the focus should be but has never been on the underlying psychological constructions that make up “learning.” > > And then, even in places where the schools (on the surface) appear to “work,” there’s hugely powerful sociological movements affecting education. > > If anybody ever figures it out, my bet is that you’ll be able to tell they’re right by the catcalls and strike threats by the teacher’s unions. Immersion learning. Keep kids in school 18 hours a day learning stuff. Eventually their brains will learn HOW TO LEARN. That or smaller class sizes i guess. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041/22 "2010-08-02T20:43:59Z")
Or more likely, eventually their brains would learn HOW TO GET AWAY WITH PLAYING HOOKEY, so they can get some sleep. Or do absolutely anything else at all. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041/23 "2010-08-02T21:46:13Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > As you delve deeper into the morass that is the US public school system, only one theme becomes crystal clear: nobody knows. Study after study contradicts study after study. For every example, there’s a counter-example. For every success, there’s 100 failures doing the exact same thing. Couldn’t it be possible that there is no one way to do things? Maybe the those studies are each stumbling upon a different truth. Kinda like how there is no “best” hamburger or [spaghetti sauce](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6449479356304659254#). > [@Superhal](#): > > In my grad program, the theme was: for the last 100 years, the problem with education has been the focus on pedagogy: how the class was taught and who taught it. However, the focus should be but has never been on the underlying psychological constructions that make up “learning.” Can you elaborate on specifically what you are talking about? > [@Superhal](#): > > If anybody ever figures it out, my bet is that you’ll be able to tell they’re right by the catcalls and strike threats by the teacher’s unions. What makes you say that? ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041/24 "2010-08-02T22:20:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Wait… so some schools in Florida had to reduce class sizes–by an average of three students per class. Others didn’t have to, because they _already had smaller classes_. Both the newly-reduced classes and the already-smaller classes showed “improvement.” > > What the hell good is that? Where is the control group of unchanged larger classes? And who thinks that a difference of three kids more or less is going to make much difference in any case? Good that you’re questioning this. This study contradicts many studies; I find it curious that the research fellow only mentions one other study in Tennessee. This inspired me to look up Harvard University’s Program on Education Policy and Governance and guess what? The director, Paul E. Peterson, also has an appointment at the Hoover Institute. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Notchimine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bcef8e/32.png) [@Notchimine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notchimine)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041/25 "2010-08-03T15:26:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > IIRC, not a single county in Florida ever fully complied with the class size amendment, for what it’s worth. Well, the reality is they didn’t have to until this coming school year. It had to be an average. This year schools will be penalized for every core class that isn’t compliant. Interestingly, when I attended the school board meeting least week in Orlando, it seems that teachers that have core class backgrounds yet have not taught those classes in years or at all and are art teachers or guidance counselors for example, may have to be moved into the classrooms to fulfill the mandate. Will this be better for the kids? I can’t see how. So, either the school has funding pulled to make it harder to comply OR they stick teachers that do not want to teach those subjects and are less than proficient at them in those rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041/26 "2010-08-04T01:35:19Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@Superhal](#): > > > > As you delve deeper into the morass that is the US public school system, only one theme becomes crystal clear: nobody knows. Study after study contradicts study after study. For every example, there’s a counter-example. For every success, there’s 100 failures doing the exact same thing. > > 1. Couldn’t it be possible that there is no one way to do things? Maybe the those studies are each stumbling upon a different truth. Kinda like how there is no “best” hamburger or [spaghetti sauce](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6449479356304659254#). > > 2. Can you elaborate on specifically what you are talking about? > > > [@Superhal](#): > > > > If anybody ever figures it out, my bet is that you’ll be able to tell they’re right by the catcalls and strike threats by the teacher’s unions. > > 1. What makes you say that? 1. Sure, there’s studies that make all sorts of wild claims. The problem though is that public schools can’t implement all of them. As they said in my teacher training class: the US public school system is the only government agency run using socialism instead of democracy: everybody gets the same crappy education, no matter what. 2. For the last 100 years until now, education has been focused on pedagogy (the materials, computers, books, games, etc. used in the classroom) or teacher certification (the tests a teacher needs to pass to get their license and the classes required for that teacher to pass the test.) People in my department believe that the answer doesn’t lie in the classrooms, but in the student’s brain: if we can figure out how the brain learns, we will then know how best to teach it. Until then, we’re just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, and what sticks doesn’t stick every year for every student. 3. Because it will be so radically different than what we are doing now, nobody will want to do it. People are afraid of change, even when the current system is a complete and absolute failure. Given the magnitude of the current failure of the public school system, the changes that need to be made are unimaginably drastic. Of all the opponents of change, the biggest are parents (“What’s good enough for me is good enough for my kids”) and teachers who don’t want to go back to school to learn new techniques or theories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assumption-that-smaller-class-sizes-better-student-achievement-turns-out-not-to-be-true-what-now/547041.md?page=1)