# Astral Projection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542 "2004-04-28T19:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/261 "2004-05-16T05:09:53Z")
> [@Joe Random](#): > > There _is_ a valid link hiding in there. Here’s a [direct link to the study [warning, PDF]](http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf) Yeah, he’s posted that unsubstanciated and inconclusive report before. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/262 "2004-05-16T05:10:50Z")
Good post, **Joe Random.** I would also like to point out that nothing in Leroy’s post that you demolished related to the OP in the first place, which was about Astral Projection. 🙂 I predict that[ul][_]Love Man Leroy will give the same links again and again without apology,[_]He will insist they are scientific and we are being unreasonable,[_]You & I are too skeptical and blind to see the truth,[_]All we need is love,[\*]And he will quote your entire post verbatim before replying.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/263 "2004-05-16T05:36:21Z")
Snakespirit - You are correct, the phenomenon keeps coming back, with several dozen different interpretations. This does not mean any of them are correct, but it suggests there is some sort of cause of the experience. It has been suggested that it is caused by brain chemistry. This can be analyzed. It has also been suggested, for example, it is caused by the soul leaving the body. This, and I’d like to emphasize this, this can not be analyzed. Science can say nothing about the soul, about ineffable mysteries, about justice, about beauty. It can codify experiences, but generally, they are irrelevant to it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/264 "2004-05-16T12:33:25Z")
> [@Joe Random](#): > > Actually, that is not true at all. Here’s a quote from the study: > > It’s true that the study didn’t find that NDEs _must be_ cause by physical processes. However, neither did it find that they must _not_ be caused by physical processes. The study doesn’t address the causes of NDEs at **all** , except to say that no one really knows, and that more research is needed. > > In other words, the study does not support your beliefs. > > Not at all. It might be a case of mind reading, for instance. It’s kind of hard to tell since the link is not to the study itself, but a news piece reporting on the study. We have no data to examine, which is not a good thing in determining validity. If you can find a link to the actual study data, that would be helpful. > > Actually, that study talks about the _success_ of brain mapping, by taking a large population consisting of many different brains, and finding the similarities and differences between them. Here’s a quote from that site. > Sounds like they did a bang-up job of mapping the brain, as well as understanding how brain functions can vary from person-to-person while still having the same basic structure. > > Once again, you really need to do a better job with reading and understanding your sources before you cite them. > > That is but a single anecdote. Hardly something that could be considered hard evidence. We have no information on what controls (if any) were in place to prevent Ms. Reynolds from gaining information about the surgery either before the procedure, or after the procedure but before talking to doctors, for instance. This is why anecdotal evidence isn’t good evidence at all. > > Actually, you only had _one_ link to an actual scientific study, and it did not come to the conclusion that NDEs are anything more than a biological phenomenon. It instead concluded by stating that more research is needed. > > The “study” about the mediums talking to the dead is actually a link to a fluff news piece, and not a link to the study itself. Without access to the actual data, we can’t draw any conclusions. > > The “study” about brain mapping is simply an informational description that basically says that, even though brain structure varies from individual to individual, scientists have succeeded in coming up with a very good atlas of the human brain. > > The “study” about Pam Reynolds was a short article about one woman’s personal experience. There were no controls in place, and no actual experiment was performed. It is not a study at all. > > Well, since you currently have _zero_ scientific studies that support your claims, I have to assume that “more” means “more cites that either don’t support me or aren’t valid scientific studies”. If that’s the case, then no thanks. The studies show exactly what I said they did. I won’t dignify your opinions and conjectures with an answer. Love ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/265 "2004-05-16T12:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Good post, **Joe Random.** I would also like to point out that nothing in Leroy’s post that you demolished related to the OP in the first place, which was about Astral Projection. 🙂 I predict that[ul][li]Love Man Leroy will give the same links again and again without apology,[_]He will insist they are scientific and we are being unreasonable,[_]You & I are too skeptical and blind to see the truth,[_]All we need is love,[_]And he will quote your entire post verbatim before replying.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Getting personal again? The first study was presented at the University of California in Berkley. The other studies were done under controlled conditions at other Universities. There are also studies going on at the University of Arizona, Duke University, and the University of Virginia. Yes. I will keep bringing up the studies because they are valid and no one debunked them here. Every post on spiritual processes are about near death experiences where spiritual nature is best shown. I can understand skeptics not wanting to face the evidence they bring to the table, but that is what debating is all about. The amount of studies on NDEs is growing. The evidence is piling up. If some want to ignore it, that’s ok, this is a free country, they can do so. But, the near death experience, is the most important “discovery” in the history of mankind and will not go away. I didn’t mention the research of Raymond Moody, Elizabeth Keubler-Ross, Melvin Morse, Kenneth Ring, and other top NDE researchers. These doctors, PhDs, and Psychiatrists are well documented and have added to the mountain of evidence showing man is spiritual by nature. Skeptics here seem to think their opinions are worth more than the controlled studies presented, but real scientists will quickly disagree with them. I have yet to see any controlled studies from the skeptics showing strong evidence to the contrary of the valid reports. I still wait for them. I am interested in truth, if you have truth show it to me. I am not interested in opinions, conjectures, or pseudo-science. Where’s the beef? Love ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/266 "2004-05-16T13:46:43Z")
Hah! Every prediction I made (in post 262) came true! I’m truly psychic! :dubious: If only I had applied for the JREF mil$ _before_ I made them. :smack: Now I’m going to astrally-project myself to the kitchen and fix me up a mess o’ breakfast. Hope I don’t bump into **Cityboy916** on the way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/267 "2004-05-16T15:51:52Z")
**lekatt** , do you even _understand_ what an independent scientific study is? It might help us understand you if you could give us your definition. As far as the rest of the world goes, it _doesn’t_ mean “opinion”, “newspaper or TV report”, “press release”, “conjecture based on speculation” or any of the many other items you’ve presented as links so far. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/268 "2004-05-16T16:07:55Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Hah! Every prediction I made (in post 262) came true! I’m truly psychic! :dubious: If only I had applied for the JREF mil$ _before_ I made them. :smack: > > Now I’m going to astrally-project myself to the kitchen and fix me up a mess o’ breakfast. Hope I don’t bump into **Cityboy916** on the way. 🙂 Sorry, bucky, but the award is for _paranormal_ activity. Your predictions merely pointed out the obvious, much the same as if _I_ had predicted that the sun would come up this morning. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/269 "2004-05-16T16:36:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **lekatt** , do you even _understand_ what an independent scientific study is? It might help us understand you if you could give us your definition. As far as the rest of the world goes, it _doesn’t_ mean “opinion”, “newspaper or TV report”, “press release”, “conjecture based on speculation” or any of the many other items you’ve presented as links so far. Yes. Press releases and news storries do not come from thin air, they are summaries of the controlled studies which can be located by contacting the author, which will tell you a summary of the research like the one in the paper. Don’t play with words with me. Just show me your controlled studies. Love ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/270 "2004-05-16T16:54:38Z")
That just about says it all, folks. :rolleyes: Buh bye. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/271 "2004-05-16T16:57:02Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Hah! Every prediction I made (in post 262) came true! I’m truly psychic! :dubious: If only I had applied for the JREF mil$ _before_ I made them. :smack: > > Now I’m going to astrally-project myself to the kitchen and fix me up a mess o’ breakfast. Hope I don’t bump into **Cityboy916** on the way. 🙂 Yes, very funny, ridiculing and belittling, talking down to people who don’t believe as you do. My prediction is that it happens every time a skeptic is debunked. Love ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/272 "2004-05-16T18:54:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, very funny, ridiculing and belittling, talking down to people who don’t believe as you do. My prediction is that it happens every time a skeptic is debunked. > > Love No, _this_ is ridicule: BWA-HA-HA-HA-HEE! 😃😃😃😃 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/273 "2004-05-16T19:24:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That just about says it all, folks. :rolleyes: > > Buh bye. Whoa! does this mean I get no controlled studies with evidence that man is not spiritual. That all the things said in this thread by the skeptics can’t be reinforced by scientific studies. Darn. I guess I win another debate by default. Love bye ---
**Author:** ![VertexShader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VertexShader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VertexShader)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/274 "2004-05-16T19:45:50Z")
Yep, you win Lekatt. We have spirits and we will visit an all-loving god when we die and live in bliss for eternity. I am now convinced. Thank you for saving me. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/275 "2004-05-16T20:34:03Z")
> [@VertexShader](#): > > Yep, you win Lekatt. We have spirits and we will visit an all-loving god when we die and live in bliss for eternity. I am now convinced. > > Thank you for saving me. You beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/276 "2004-05-16T21:48:52Z")
**Musicat** , you really know how to call them, don’t you? **Leroy** , instead of quoting my entire post just to, in essence, say “You’re wrong”, would you care to show me _where_ I’m wrong? Let me give you an example of what I’m looking for. You said > [@lekatt](#): > > Here is one on brain studies **showing the failure of brain mapping** (emphasis mine) I responded with a quote from the article in question, which said > [@](#): > > This brain atlas — freely available to registered users over the Internet — **maps the brains** in multiple dimensions (emphasis mine) Please explain to me how that study shows the failure of brain mapping when the article you cited says that **they have mapped the brain**. You are directly contradicting the article you quoted. After I pointed this out to you, you said > [@lekatt](#): > > The studies show exactly what I said they did. Let me put this bluntly – and please realize that I am not attacking you, mocking you, or ridiculing you (If I wanted to do that, I’d start a Pit thread) – anyway, bluntly put, **you are lying**. I could understand that you may have misread the article the first time around. But when I _show you_ that the article says that **they have mapped the human brain** , and you _ **still** _ insist that the article says that they have _ **not** _, then you are lying. This is not meant to be an insult. It is instead a statement of fact. You are typing falsehoods even when you _know_ that the article contradicts you. The only other possibility is that you _don’t_ know that the article contradicts you because you never bothered to read my post. So which is it, are you lying, or are you completely ignoring my posts? Are you a dishonest person willing to speak falsehoods in order to “prove” your point, or are you so totally convinced that you’re right that you refuse to even _consider_ arguments that contradict your beliefs? Either way, I am highly insulted. I don’t like being lied to, and neither do I appreciate it when those who are debating with me plug their ears while I speak, only to spout the same lines once again as soon as my lips stop moving. > [@](#): > > I won’t dignify your opinions and conjectures with an answer. Oh, I really think that you should. At this point, you _really_ need to convince the people you are debating with that you are neither lying nor ignoring us. The only way to do this would be to actually engage one of us in a real, honest-to-goodness debate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/277 "2004-05-16T23:32:13Z")
I’m amazed that anyone still tries to engage in any sort of logical debate with **lekatt**. Did we learn nothing from the Praagh thread? You’d have better luck trying to nail soup to a door than trying to get lekatt to see logic. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/278 "2004-05-17T00:59:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m amazed that anyone still tries to engage in any sort of logical debate with **lekatt**. Did we learn nothing from the Praagh thread? You’d have better luck trying to nail soup to a door than trying to get lekatt to see logic. You’re probably right, but it’s in my nature to try. The thought that someone may be totally impervious to logic is something that I just find . . . disturbing . . . on a very fundamental level. To me, having someone completely ignore a perfectly logical argument is the mental equivalent to fingernails screeching across a chalkboard. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/279 "2004-05-17T01:11:56Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > It has also been suggested, for example, it is caused by the soul leaving the body. Sure assumes a lot. It assumes we have souls. It assumes we have bodies (that this experience isn’t some collective hallucination). That they are seperate things, etc. Too many assumptions for me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/280 "2004-05-17T01:34:37Z")
**Snakespirit** -using your sig more than once per thread is excessive. Please stop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542.md?page=15)