# Astral Projection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542 "2004-04-28T19:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/61 "2004-05-07T21:22:03Z")
SDSAB Doug said, to answer the OP (all bolding mine): > [@](#): > > [AP] actually turns out to be…a rather natural and common form of hallucination… > > In essence, **it’s just a trick of the brainstem,** and can lead to absolutely amazing, intense, and realistic sensations of about anything you can imagine–by far **the most incredible things you can experience** without recourse to drugs… > > I’ve experimented quite a bit trying to succeed in “remote viewing,” and like every other scientific test of the phenomenon, **failed to produce any statistically significant correlation between things I viewed and reality.** As much as I would love to be the person to win the Amazing Randi’s million-dollar prize for demonstrating a real OBE, as much as I would love to believe in an astral plane and possible life beyond the confines of the body, **I haven’t been able to find any proof** that this is anything but a quirk of human physiology… > > **It’s too bad…that people should attach religious or quasi-religious significance to it,** because that makes it hard to educate people about it, or do any legitimate scientific research about the phenomenon. That’s the nutshell in a nutshell. And everything I have said in this thread is in support of **Doug’s** position. So this really is a Debate, but about a topic in a Staff Report. Hard to separate them apples, sometimes. > [@Snakespirit](#): > > What, exactly, am I supposed to be claiming? I don’t know what this is, just that I, and others, have experienced it. I’m not claiming it is science, proven or even possible; I’m not claiming it is anything. I don’t doubt that you experienced _something._ I think it was a dream. You may feel it was something else. You’re entitled to your opinion, but if you’re not “claiming it is anything,” why start this thread? To tell us about your strange dreams? If so, then we’re both in the wrong forum, IMHO. Boy, I had a whopper the other night… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/62 "2004-05-07T21:45:42Z")
You’re welcome for the comments. Hang in there. As for e-mailing, I like to stay pretty anonymous on this board, so I don’t have e-mail available. Maybe in the future. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/63 "2004-05-07T21:49:01Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I don’t doubt that you experienced _something._ I think it was a dream. You may feel it was something else. You’re entitled to your opinion, but if you’re not “claiming it is anything,” why start this thread? To tell us about your strange dreams? If so, then we’re both in the wrong forum, IMHO. Boy, I had a whopper the other night… :eek: If it was a dream, I was conscious while dreaming, but then I’ve done that, too, and it’s different. Why start this thread? To try to uncover answers, of course. To fight ignorance (mine) by tying to get some reasonable explanations of my experience. Remember, I started this in CoSR – “the great unwashed” treated it like a Great Debate, and so a MOD moved it here. Yeah, it should have gone into IMNSHO, but then I’m a newbie here. I started this thread in CoSR because I didn’t like the way the SR dismissed the idea, and so commented on it. That seemed the appropriate forum. Then the sharks smelled blood, and moved in… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![VertexShader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VertexShader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VertexShader)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/64 "2004-05-07T23:51:30Z")
I’m personally convinced that AP is just a hallucination caused by an endogenous hallucinogen, namly N, N DMT (di-methyl tryptamine), or 5-meo-DMT. Near-death experiences are caused by this INTENSE hallucinogen being naturally released by the brain (pineal gland). Alien-abduction experiences are also explained by this mystical drug. Both Near-death experiences and alien abduction experiences involve a bright-light, being lifted up, seeing other beings, and a loud ringing sound. Recreational users of DMT also experience the EXACT same thing. People have a hard time admitting that these experiences are “merely” caused by drugs. They don’t want to admit it, because that would make them no better than all those other drug-using hippies, and that scares them. Ignorance is bliss. They have found drawings of magic mushrooms in caves, dating back to 5000 BC. ---
**Author:** ![VertexShader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@VertexShader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VertexShader)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/65 "2004-05-08T00:38:16Z")
The brain releases DMT throughout sleep. But, every now and then, the brain spontaneously releases DMT for no apparent reason. Most spontaneous releases occur in the morning. Most alien abductions also happen in the morning. (Read “DMT: The Spirit Molecule” for more information) When a spontaneous release occurs, people have a tendancy to attribute this state-of-being to GOD (“I’m feeling god!”). These are known as mystical experiences. Once a christian experiences a mystical experience, they are hooked on faith. It becomes their drug of choice, if you will. Some people have gone as far to say that religion was invented by drugs. Its not uncommon to have “religious experiences” under the influence of magic mushrooms, lsd, dmt, or other hallucinogens. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/66 "2004-05-08T14:43:20Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > OK, I never intended this to be in Great Debates. The OP doesn’t support inclusion therein. Therefore, I’m outa here. See you in IMNSHO. > > But, before I go: > > The OP: > > And a comment to Trunk: > > What, exactly, am I supposed to be claiming? I don’t know what this is, just that I, and others, have experienced it. I’m not claiming it is science, proven or even possible; I’m not claiming it is anything. > > I won’t say _you_, but others here are claiming it is something. Well, let’s take those same scientific criteria (nicely done, btw) and have those folks look in a mirror. It’s not scientific to call it bunk, delusion, hallucination, whatever, unless it meets those same four criteria. We **can** call it unproven, unlikely, faith-based, and similar opinionated terms. Even calling it Astral Projection or remote viewing is a stretch, but then you got to call it something. > > Thanks to “Aes…” for those comments. Tried to email you but couldn’t. > > “What we got here is a failure to communicate.” > > I started this in CoSR, people started posting like it was GD, the moderator moved it? to GD, and some posts sure don’t belong here (others belong nowhere else). > > What a mess. Please don’t get upset at the skeptics, they are just doing their thing. They have no proof of what they say, so they use name calling to make up for it. It is hard to post anything spiritual on this board. Science was once the hope of mankind. A discipline that actually listened and studied the phenomenon of the world. But today is has become rigid, and looks only for confomity in its followers. I know that astral projection is possible, and that people have gathered information from it. Probably not as much as is claimed. Our scientists friends are not going to read and study all the facets of these experiences, only what they feel they can explain away. It is a standoff, and will remain so, at least for awhile. But, not to worry, the world will not change for anyone and what is truth today will be truth tomorrow. In the last poll I read, 83% of the people in this country believed in spiritual things such as the after life and God, while only 17% thought this spiritual stuff was nonsense. However the 17% controls most of the media and what is taught in schools. I believe this is natural. Spiritual people pursue spiritual things and materialists pursue the material things. We spiritualists are not losing the debate. The research being done is favoring our side and soon, I hope, we will not have to put up with the skeptics unless they have some real proof of what they say. Love ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/67 "2004-05-08T15:14:14Z")
To me the biggest problem with this “astral projection” nonsense is the utter absurdity of an invisible, immaterial “spirit.” Which for some reason resides superfluously in a physical body and then can “leave” it at death (or whenever). Prove to me that there’s a spirit or a “soul” or whatever the hell you want to call it. What is it made of? Where is it in the body? If it has sensory perception how does that perception work? If it “sees”, how does it process light? If it “hears” how does it perceive sound vibrations without any materiality? What does it think and remember with if it doesn’t have a brain? If it moves, _how_ does it move? What is the kinetic process? If it isn’t material, then what _is_ it? What distinguishes “spirit” from nothingness? If these spooks can see and hear and think and move then why do we need brains and eyes and ears and muscles in our bodies? Why don’t we just think and perceive and move with our spirits? Why did we evolve stuff we didn’t need? The more you think about the concept of a soul the more obvious it becomes how silly that concept is. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/68 "2004-05-08T22:38:40Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Prove to me that there’s a spirit or a “soul” or whatever the hell you want to call it. What is it made of? Where is it in the body? If it has sensory perception how does that perception work? If it “sees”, how does it process light? If it “hears” how does it perceive sound vibrations without any materiality? What does it think and remember with if it doesn’t have a brain? Somehow, from reading the thread, I gather that the point may be that while we don’t know more (well…anything, really) about consciousness, the human mind etc, ridiculing the\* idea \* that something like AP is even _remotely_ possible might be a little… well… closed-minded? No? > [@](#): > > We don’t have a good definition of consciousness because we don’t know what it is. > > Roger Penrose, physicist For the record, I’m not too crazy about AP and I think people who “talk to the dead” are evil hacks at best, but I really can’t see a reason to be so negative and dowright hostile about AP being brought up. But then again, I refuse to deny the existance of Elves. If they don’t exist, no prob - but if they do, I’m not risking their wrath. Oh, how sorry you all will be once the revolution begins… our Elven overlords… ::Wanders off, mumbling to himself:: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/69 "2004-05-08T23:43:25Z")
The only idea I’m ridiculing is that we must consider astral projection _at all_, considering the fact that hundreds of years of claims have produced nothing of substance. The pattern is usually thus: Claimant, “I can astrally project my body!” Challanger,“That seems to go against everything that science teaches us-would you mind proving it to me, or at least showing me evidence that consists of more than your personal word or anecdotes from true believers?” Claimant,“Why are you persecuting me?” ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/70 "2004-05-09T00:15:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The only idea I’m ridiculing is that we must consider astral projection _at all_, considering the fact that hundreds of years of claims have produced nothing of substance. So despite what the AP believers think, they should just give up and concentrate on cold fusion\* or a perpetual motion machine\* instead - seeing as nothing of substance has been produced for some time? (\*No reason at all for naming these two) …and may I add that I am shocked to find myself on this side of this argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/71 "2004-05-09T00:26:12Z")
I don’t think they should believe in perpetual motion machines, either. :dubious: They’re as silly as ESP. One of the big problems here is the meaning of “believe”. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: be·lieve > Pronunciation: b&-'lEv > Function: verb > Inflected Form(s): be·lieved; be·liev·ing > Etymology: Middle English beleven, from Old English belEfan, from be- + lyfan, lEfan to allow, believe; akin to Old High German gilouben to believe, Old English lEof dear – more at LOVE > intransitive senses > 1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real \ \ > 2 : to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something \ > 3 : to hold an opinion : THINK \ > transitive senses > 1 a : to consider to be true or honest \ \ b : to accept the word or evidence of \ \ > 2 : to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE \ > > - be·liev·er noun > - not believe : to be astounded at \–_from Merriam Websters_ You AP people are using meaning #1. We are using, more or less, Transitive sense 1a. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/72 "2004-05-09T00:34:56Z")
Yup. Seems it’s time for the obligatory John Stuart Mill Quote > [@](#): > > When there are persons to be found, who form an exception to the apparent unanimity of the world on any subject, even if the world is in the right, it is always probable that dissentients have something worth hearing to say for themselves, **and that truth would lose something by their silence**. > > -_John Stuart Mill (1806–1873). On Liberty. 1869_. Bolding mine. On believing, I would be of the transitive sense 2 variety: > [@](#): > > 2 : to hold as an opinion : SUPPOSE \ Oh, and **Bosda** (can I call you Bosda?), did you just refer to me as “You AP people”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/73 "2004-05-09T00:46:22Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > I don’t think they should believe in perpetual motion machines, either. :dubious: > > They’re as silly as ESP. > > One of the big problems here is the meaning of “believe”. > > You AP people are using meaning #1. > > We are using, more or less, Transitive sense 1a. > > See the difference? I think we all understand the word “belief” right enough. The big problem is more like close-mindedness, I can and have furnished studies on the various “spiritual” subjects many times. These included science research with much data showing evidence favorable to the spiritual nature of man. But most never read them, don’t want to know, don’t care, they are right because they quote “science” and badly at that. Science is their religion and they will follow it wherever it goes even unto death. Well, got that our of my system. Of course science can’t measure spiritual things. And the statements “nothing has been found in hundred of years is totally false.” Now I will furnish some more studies, and instead of the usual “bad-mouthing” how about some real studies showing your position is correct. [http://aleroy.com/wildcard](http://aleroy.com/wildcard) That is only a start. Love ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/74 "2004-05-09T00:59:51Z")
> [@](#): > > That is only a start. A start for what? That offers a discussion, but a discussion is not any sort of proof. There are thousands of people who claim “psychic” abilities every year, & many of them plead guilty for a reduced sentence on Fraud or Fortunetelling Within City Limits charges. _They_ offer a mighty fine line of discussions. And are regularly caught by the Bunko Squad; caught using stage illusions to con people like you out of their dough. How much do you pay “Psychics” every month, **lekatt**? How much to “Mediums”? Every dime wasted. It’s sad, that you can’t see the help you need. That you can’t see that we don’t hate you. That we’re trying to “talk you down”, not defile you. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/75 "2004-05-09T01:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Eternally, all people hold within themselves the perfect light of their Creator. Skeptics, believers, and experiencers alike share the common bond of their Creator’s Unconditional Love. There are no cracks to slip through, no way to become lost, the program is perfect, just us individual souls struggling to affirm our identity, to extend the love we feel within while trying to balance the contradictions of physical dualism. These Near Death Experiences remind us that we are safe, secure, and eternal. We are One. **lekatt** , I’m with you on this one (in a way) but that site you linked to does seem a little …strange? There are people, I think, who believe in AP, ESP, Remote Viewing and such mostly because they fear death in the “eternal blackness” sense. This sounds a bit like such a case. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/76 "2004-05-09T01:19:41Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Now I will furnish some more studies, and instead of the usual “bad-mouthing” how about some real studies showing your position is correct. > > [The Near Death Experience WildCard](http://aleroy.com/wildcard) > > That is only a start. > > Love I thinks this is evidence that out cynic friends just aren’t conscious! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/77 "2004-05-09T01:44:44Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > A start for what? > > That offers a discussion, but a discussion is not any sort of proof. > > There are thousands of people who claim “psychic” abilities every year, & many of them plead guilty for a reduced sentence on Fraud or Fortunetelling Within City Limits charges. _They_ offer a mighty fine line of discussions. And are regularly caught by the Bunko Squad; caught using stage illusions to con people like you out of their dough. > > How much do you pay “Psychics” every month, **lekatt**? How much to “Mediums”? Every dime wasted. > > It’s sad, that you can’t see the help you need. That you can’t see that we don’t hate you. That we’re trying to “talk you down”, not defile you. Right. “We’re the government, we’re here to help you…” There are thousands of scientists who claim “predictable results” every year, and many of them plead guilty to fraud charges, bla, bla bla. BTW, since you’re in GD… cite? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/78 "2004-05-09T01:55:37Z")
That isn’t how it works, **Snakespirit**. You claim that there is something to Astral Projection? Great. _Show us the incontrovertible evidence proving its existance_. Nothing less will do, you know. It is not up to the ‘cynics’ to disprove the existance of anything; It is up to the ‘believers’ to _prove_ it. Not just talk a lot about it, but to _prove_ it. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/79 "2004-05-09T02:05:01Z")
**Brutus** , no offence, but have you even read the thread? Snakespirit wasn’t going out to prove anything - hell, this was a “comments on staff reports” thread! > [@](#): > > That isn’t how it works, Snakespirit. You claim that there is something to Astral Projection? Great. Show us the incontrovertible evidence proving its existance. Nothing less will do, you know. That’s probably the seventh time that’s been mentioned. And **Bosda** , who was talking about mediums and psychics, anyway? Was this moved to the Pit without me noticing it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542/80 "2004-05-09T02:25:27Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > …That’s probably the seventh time that’s been mentioned. Probably because it is _that_ important. It looks like **Snakespirit** is just trying a different approach to spreading the gospel of Psychic Phenomena, nothing more, nothing less. ‘Golly, I am not saying it’s true, but me and my buddy astrally projected etc and so forth’. Even though there is not so much as a shred of documented scientific support for AP and whatnot, ‘skeptics’ are taken to task for being close-minded regarding this crap. Hardly. If I claim that a giant space dragon lives on the far side of the Moon, it would be up to me to prove it so. And I would need to prove it using sound scientific means. (Claiming that a pattern that some chicken bones fell in indicates a dragon on the Moon would not suffice.) It is not up to you to debunk my theory, nor would your disbelief in my theory make you ‘close minded’. Just sensible. And though it has been said by me and others, I’ll say it again: I _like_ the idea of psychic phenomena, ghosts, Big Foot, UFO’s, astral projection, etc. I am a sucker for _The X-Files_, various TLC/THC/TDC specials about this sort of stuff, and various books about it. But in all that, I have yet to see anything past anecdotal stories and the occasional ill-managed ‘experiment’. It just ain’t true, no matter how neat the concept is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astral-projection/242542.md?page=5)