# astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068 "2004-04-20T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/241 "2004-04-23T00:16:21Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Congratulations – you’ve now made me more skeptical. Listening to you makes me think that there are more women out there who are completely full of shit, and more men who are sent away for no good reason. This is the saddest part of all, and I’m sad to have to agree. I started as one of the most vocal supporters of Zabali, right from teh beginning, because in these situations I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to the victim/survivor. But your last post, with the green semen, and the multitudes of strangers threatening you really put me off. If you’ve made these stories up, you’ve done a lot more damage than you think. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/242 "2004-04-23T00:23:04Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > Or maybe the age of consent in the Netherlands is frighteningly low? Are you frightened by it? I’m not. I’ve seen no evidence that the Netherlands is having a child rape epidemic, nor are the other countries with low ages of consent (14 in Canada, Mexico, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, China…). It seems much more likely to me that (1) lawmakers in the U.S. underestimate teenagers’ ability to decide what they want to do, and (2) if American teenagers really are less able to decide, it’s caused by their lack of education and a society that expects them to act like children. > [@](#): > > We generally wouldn’t allow an unsupervised 12 year old to play with a gun, and considering the gravity of the situation (possible pregnancy, STD’s, rape, etc), I don’t see how sex is too much different. Interesting that you’d bring that up… in many countries, an unsupervised 25 year old can’t play with guns either. There’s nothing in their genes that makes them less capable of handling guns safely; they just don’t have the societal belief that any average joe can safely handle a gun with the right training. Similarly, we in the U.S. don’t have the societal belief that any average teenager can safely handle sex with the right education. But if you look at the countries where they do believe that, where they actually _have_ safe sex education, you’ll see that they don’t have the problems you might expect. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/243 "2004-04-23T00:25:05Z")
I decided to back out of this thread when my doubts about the credibility of her story were making a few people irritated. I am coming back just to say that earlier I was 70% certain she was full of shit. I am now 110% positive. Zabali, you need help and I don’t mean as a rape victim. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/244 "2004-04-23T00:39:52Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to the victim/survivor. Absolutely. And I think we ought to continue to do so, _in spite of_ people like **Zabali**. I know the incredible trauma a woman can go through when people don’t believe her, and the emotional damage that can result. It’s a horrifying thing. I believed **Zabali** in the beginning, though my eyebrows were raised by the fact that she initially called it “borderline rape”, and then went on to scream that it was rape, and no one should question her. But as **Tremmie** said, better to err on the side of the woman who claims such a _serious_ crime. And I think that’s the point. This is a _serious_ issue, and one that must be dealt with in a serious manner. There are too many women (and men) who are raped and assaulted too damn often for someone like **Zabali** to come along and convolute this issue with these stories. ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/245 "2004-04-23T00:57:39Z")
Folks, while i agree **Zabali** ’s story gets more unbelievable with each retelling there is still the possibility that its true so lets hold off on the lynching for now. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/246 "2004-04-23T01:28:32Z")
> [@leander](#): > > And I think that’s the point. This is a _serious_ issue, and one that must be dealt with in a serious manner. There are too many women (and men) who are raped and assaulted too damn often for someone like **Zabali** to come along and convolute this issue with these stories. I think we’re not quite getting the point here. I don’t think **Zabali** has exactly been making this stuff up. Let’s assume that the first version was pretty much accurate. That is, her boyfriend pestered her for a while until she finally gave in. Bear in mind that he was touching her throughout this time; there’s a good chance that despite her anxiety about having sex, she was somewhat aroused herself. I mention this because I suspect this may have contributed to subsequent guilt feelings. Somewhere back in the original trainwreck, I think, **Zabali** refers to a) spending years blaming herself for this and another, subsequent ‘rape’. She also makes reference to some rather heavy duty church stuff. If **Zabali** was raised quite religiously, or became quite religious in her early teens, the burden of guilt she may have felt for ‘giving in’ may in fact have been extremely crushing. Even without religion, societal attitudes toward ‘sluts’ may have been enough to cause her enormous feelings of guilt about the whole business, _especially_ if her own libido had been involved. Enter, at some point, a counsellor trying to help her. By virtue of the magic of contemporary diluted terminology and likely an earnest desire to help, **Zabali** ’s perhaps unpleasant but certainly not uncommon experience is transformed. No longer is she a corrupt, loose, girl, but an innocent victim of rape! And the relief of victimhood and excuses was discovered. Believe me, I understand this all too well. I have a somewhat analogous situation. When I was a child, and to this day, when I am (as usual) lazy and don’t feel like doing something I ought, my mother finds excuses for me - often that I am sick or justifiably tired. I’ve spent years fighting the hypochondria I eventually realized I had developed from my mom’s entirely well meant comfort. Being sick means never having to say you’re sorry. Of course, it also means you’re sick, but hey, it was worth it. I think **Zabali** became a hypochondriac, not only of physcial ailments (her disability is based on bipolar disorder and arthritis, both very much dependent on reported symptoms rather than objective testing), but of abuse. For example, the abusive relationship she mentions either in this thread or the one that prompted it is described in another thread thus: > [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > This person turned out to be a Werewolf in a Sheepskin, I found out from his family he’d been in prison for a violent crime, attempted murder. (I’m not from this town.) He started being abusive within a month and a half of starting to date me (at which point I went to the battered women’s shelter and began making “escape” plans which take time to implement safely) including nearly snapping my kitten’s head off because I closed the bathroom door so I could poo, and have my period in solitude. He didn’t actually hit me, the relationship didn’t escalate that far, I left before it could. He would threaten me, break stuff, verbally abuse me, and refuse sex. I got out FAST, I only dated him for 3 months total. (Yes, that’s record time, and shows how much I’ve grown and healed.) A potentially nasty relationship? Definitely. Did it look like it was heading in the direction of abuse? Quite possibly. But she went to a women’s shelter to “escape” some _six weeks_ after they started dating, and he never hit her. I’ve known truly abusive relationships. They weren’t about a month and a half, and they didn’t involve “nearly.” My point in all this is that I think the coping strategy that **Zabali** has developed for her life is perpetual victimhood (calling it survival when occasion calls for it). I don’t think she makes it up. But I think her perceptions are geared to see attack and/or abuse and/or incapacity in vitually any situation. Nine pittings (five of Dopers) in just over a year, remember? And we as a society are geared to support that. For one thing, we’ve nearly equated victimhood and heroism - anyone who has been through a disaster gets as much admiration as a person who has risked or given his/her life for another. For another thing, we tend to take people very much at their face value when they claim our sympathy, and I’m afraid I find this particularly true for women who claim to have suffered at the hands of men (I am a woman). I think this is large part because we have trouble imagining why someone would want to believe they had suffered some horrible affliction if they actually hadn’t. But then, it’s hard to believe someone would actually _want_ (at least at an unconscious level) to be sick - but I can tell you from my own experience that one can. So take a huge heaping of guilt and shame, add an overly assiduous counsellor, and voila! a victim has been created. From there on in, it’s often easier to find ways of being a victim than it is to cope with everyday life. _And_ it becomes more necessary because, underlying it all is always the suspicion that one is sliding, and more guilt piles on. Oh, I understand it, because in a very different form from **Zabali** ’s, I’ve lived it. I may be wrong about **Zabali** , of course. Psychological analysis is trivially easy across the internet, and about as risky as ‘communicating with the dead’ - how can I ever be proven wrong? But my point here is that I suspect it’s silly to pile on to her as if she’s purely making up stories, because to her, they’re probably quite true and certainly necessary. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/247 "2004-04-23T01:35:11Z")
God this thread is making me gag. If every story that **Zabali** has told is true, she’s had one of the most craptastic histories I can imagine. If half of the stories are false then **Zabali** has still had a pretty shitful life. If none of the stories that **Zabali** has told are true, then she clearly has other “issues” that she needs to deal with. Frankly, I don’t think any of the above scenarios benefits from people attacking this woman. I recognize that posting stuff on a message board is opening yourself up, but I kinda think this might be one of those situations where backing off would be better for everyone involved. Just my 2 cents. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/248 "2004-04-23T02:34:28Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > And some of them are just suggestible women who took an experience they have no fond memory of, but wasn’t criminal, and were eventually convinced by their helpful counselor that it was a crime. First, let me sorry for your experience. I know how you feel, both being sexually assaulted and having assumptions made about you because you won’t go along with the\* Cult of True Victimhood.\* I was sexually assualted by a family member as a child and by two strangers on two separate occassions as a teen. I have been extensively counselled over this but I came to the conclusion after a while that if I remained in counselling, I would remain a victim. They wanted me to flesh out _every little hurt_ and name it the cause of Why I Am The Way I Am. How I tired of all the stories like Zabali’s (sorry, I believe you were traumatized and I’m sorry for your pain, but it is impossible to tell whether you were actually raped or just regretted your decision and called it rape due to some counselling). Most of the sex abuse survivors I know are still in this kind of counselling, where any instance you can think of from your own life can be added like a badge to a Girl Scout sash that symbolizes how much you’ve been victimized. For all their talk of being “survivors,” doting on their victimhood seems to be where they spend the greatest amount of time. I had to get out of that before I could learn to empower myself. I’m happy to report that I’m a happy, healthy, sexually satisfied 33 year old woman. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/249 "2004-04-23T02:38:51Z")
Good on you, **presidebt**! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/250 "2004-04-23T02:55:54Z")
> [@Tremmie](#): > > Folks, while i agree **Zabali** ’s story gets more unbelievable with each retelling there is still the possibility that its true so lets hold off on the lynching for now. Not quite right. I think her version of events is false and getting worse. But I don’t think she is lying. I think she believes what she is saying, but that doesn’t make it accurate. And that is the fucked up thing about memory. It is completely unreliable. It it very subjective and events can change and take on new meanings according to one’s emotional state. I saw a quote that I like. “There are 3 sides to every story: Your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying”. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/251 "2004-04-23T02:56:31Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > But your last post, with the green semen, and the multitudes of strangers threatening you really put me off. Can anyone with a medical background confirm the existence of a medical condition that could cause green semen, or is the OP blowing smoke? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/252 "2004-04-23T03:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **Presidebt** said: > First, let me sorry for your experience. I know how you feel, both being sexually assaulted and having assumptions made about you because you won’t go along with the Cult of True Victimhood. I can most definitely relate here. Some (probably most) women feel they need counseling after having been raped. It’s understandable, even expected, but it’s so _unexpected_ for someone to work through it on their own and heal from it that some very, very nasty things have been said to me because I have expressed the opinion that it is _possible_ (not likely, but possible) to heal from something such as a rape on your own. I think I was lucky that I did, and I can’t really tell exactly how I did it. Something in my head just went ‘click’ and I realized that although I had done something really dumb, I did not deserve the events that followed. At some point, which didn’t take ‘long enough’ by the standards of some and took ‘too long’ by the standards of others, I let it go. It’s not that easy for everybody, I totally understand. It’s fine for people to handle it in their own and different ways. What’s not OK is for someone to tell me that I didn’t heal, that I’m just ‘in denial’ because I didn’t suffer for years and I don’t refer to myself as a victim. I think where the ‘Cult of True Victimhood’ comes in is at the point where people no longer just want to share their experiences with others and get better, but to define their entire future in terms of it and snipe at those who don’t. And also I’m glad to hear that you have healed from your personal tragedies as well. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/253 "2004-04-23T03:24:05Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > \*I’m using the term ‘aggravated rape’ to distinguish from ‘statutory rape’ And herein lies part of the problem. Aggravated rape has a specific legal meaning. It does not mean all rape apart from statutory rape. It’s like attempts to redefine force and consent when those words have specific meanings when used in a legal sense. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/254 "2004-04-23T06:01:53Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I wasn’t trying to be mean, only to suggest an addition to what is a really good lesson. I suggest this because, although rare, I have a friend who was abused in two relationships by two separate women and one of the reasons he had such a hard time finally realizing this and leaving the second girl was that he’d never even heard of a guy getting abused. Hey, I never said, or thought, you were mean! I was amending your suggestion to mine. > [@](#): > > I think you’re instilling good things, though, and your kids are already way less likely than a lot of others to be either a victimizer or a victim. :::blush and shuffle::: I don’t have kids. But thanks for the vote of confidence. > [@](#): > > Yes, you’re right, a blowjob does seem trivial compared to forced penetration. I think also though, a guy who feels victimized may have his feelings compounded with the social message that he’s whining about nothing, though. Both of those can really mess someone up, which is horrible for them, no matter who ‘has it worse’. Of course, that’s only my opinion. Good point. **IzzyR** : Oh. Well, she was probably right then. I’m just conditioned to believe the kid over the parent, especially if it’s the kid who’s been “carrying” the memory, simply because my mom is so **notoriously** unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/255 "2004-04-23T10:35:20Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Firstly, I was speaking of rapes done by someone the “survivor” knew, not so much stranger rape, when I said that people who had this happen to them stood a higher chance of it happening again. Those chances are reduced if the person seeks counseling, and learns what they can do to be stronger, and grow healthy. Otherwise, it’s as if the denial about the truth of the event (s) blinds the person enough that they don’t see the warning signs so they can avoid it happening again. This isn’t as I’ve said, every case. I’m sure it’s the opposite in some cases. But it is the case sometimes. I’d still like to see the evidence from a reputable professional about this, because, personally, I think it’s false, at least in the sence that you’re suggesting it’s the norm. According to a few googled sites, about 2/3 of rapists are known to the victim. The guy that raped me was my boyfriend that I lived with at the time. I seem to have sucessfully managed to read the “warning signs” well enough to not repeat the event. In fact I think that my experience has made me LESS likely to be a victim again. “Stranger Rape” is far less common, and is more likely to be the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. “Acquaintance/Date Rape” surely can be more easily avoided and/or predicted. If you made a mistake once - e.g. sat there and let bloke repeatedly carry you off into the bushes, then surely the second time someone tries a similar trick you’re going to think “Oh, this didn’t end well last time, I’ll have a wander off now”. According to [this site](http://www.publicsafety.eku.edu/cp/sexassault.php) _“41% of the victims expected to be raped again.”_, surely if you are worried it might happen again you’re going to be more aware of getting into potential situations where it could happen again? I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t happen, just that I really don’t think it’s the standard reaction. Are you maybe getting confused with the idea that men who raped once and got away with it are likely to rape again? > [@milroyj](#): > > Can anyone with a medical background confirm the existence of a medical condition that could cause green semen, or is the OP blowing smoke? Hey, we’ve pan-fried it, fed it to the fishes, used it as a moisturiser, maybe this event happened on Paddy’s Day? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/256 "2004-04-23T10:38:59Z")
What is this “penetration is worse then blowjobs” thing? If you are forcing me to do something please make it penetration. Forced blow job would be 1000 times worse!! For the record blow jobs are all good…but forced??? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/257 "2004-04-23T10:50:59Z")
I wasn’t clear enough in what I said. I was responding to **Rilchaim’s** example about a girl who wants to be homecoming queen saying ‘Hey vote for me and I’ll give you head.’ And now I can see that I had a brain fart too, because it seems **Rilchaim** was talking about a different scenario than I originally had in mind anyway. I meant to say that some people see it as less serious when the guy is on the receiving end of the unwanted sexual attention, ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/258 "2004-04-23T11:00:39Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > What is this “penetration is worse then blowjobs” thing? > > If you are forcing me to do something please make it penetration. Forced blow job would be 1000 times worse!! > For the record blow jobs are all good…but forced??? There was a very old woman as a guest on the Jenny Jones show. A man had entered her house and wanted to rape her. She kept calm and said she would take it in the mouth and then proceeded to bite the guy and grabbed him by the balls while the guy pleaded for mercy and the police arrived. Cute little old lady she was. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/259 "2004-04-23T11:04:38Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > There was a very old woman as a guest on the Jenny Jones show. A man had entered her house and wanted to rape her. She kept calm and said she would take it in the mouth and then proceeded to bite the guy and grabbed him by the balls while the guy pleaded for mercy and the police arrived. Cute little old lady she was. I’m sure she was cute. But the bite to the dick might lead to thumbs in the eyesockets (well thats what they say you should do if a shark bites you :D) ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/260 "2004-04-23T11:10:10Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I’m sure she was cute. But the bite to the dick might lead to thumbs in the eyesockets (well thats what they say you should do if a shark bites you :D) And just so I sound as cute as an old lady. While he is engaged in non oral things his brain is switched off. Leaving the cute side of me to kick balls, gouge eyes or even stick a finger up each nostril just for sport. It’s not just Praying Mantises who bite the heads off their mates 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068.md?page=14)