# astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068 "2004-04-20T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/41 "2004-04-20T20:15:53Z")
> [@smoke](#): > > FWIW, if those were your last words before he penetrated you, then I would agree you were raped. Yeah, I think you’re on to something there. I am sorry I missed that before. You make a good point, **smoke.** ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/42 "2004-04-20T20:16:00Z")
> [@Thea Logica](#): > > Did you actually read any of the posts in this thread, or are you so amped about the issue that you are incapable of rational thought on the subject? > . The OP expressed a desire to spread the word on date rape. What I am trying to say is that regardless of her story…date rape is very real, and can seem very mild and can _seem_ avoidable compared to examples like **gobear’s**. They can be very different, but they are both real rapes. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/43 "2004-04-20T20:17:16Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > 😕 What are you saying here? Putting aside Zabali’s story that only a violent, stranger initiated offense can be rape? > > This is what I’m concerned about with some of the folks in this thread. A rapist can be your dad, your teacher, your boyfriend of nine years. It can be YOUR HUSBAND. It doesn’t have to end with a woman in the hospital bleeding. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. > > Regardless of what happened to Zabali, which sounds terrible, and regardless of your feelings about that story…date rape IS very real, and very horrid. Not to offend, **Jarbaby** , you are speaking from your own experience, and this is not about you. We’re talking about **Zabali** ’s experience, not yours. Not everything is about you, OK? **Zabali** was 13, so this is a case of statutory rape, but that’s all. Far too many feminists have broadened the definition of rape so much that the word barely has any meaning left. Just because you had bad sex, unsatisfying sex, were really drunk when you had sex, got dumped after you had sex, felt guilty after you had sex, or got cajoled into having sex does not equate to rape. Rape happens when the victim’s choices have been taken away by the rapist, when she has no option but to submit. If you date forces you to have sex, that’s rape. If he drugs you without your knowledge or consent and has sex with you, that’s rape. Givjng in to your boyfriend’s whining (if you are of legal age) isn’t rape. Passing out from alcohol while you’re having sex isn’t rape either. Passing out from alcohol and the having your boyfriend nail you without your consent, however, is rape. Rape is when you have no choice, not when you make a bad choice. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/44 "2004-04-20T20:18:17Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > For the rest, my last words to him that evening were \*\*“I don’t want to”. \*\* He was undressing me at the time. After that I stayed silent, and counted the stars until it was over. He could easily pick me up and carry me off, and was doing so. His actions said: “Give it up willingly, or I’ll take it”. He **took** it. I did walk away from his parent’s back yard, and moved to sit on his parent’s well lighted porch, in veiw of the neighbors. He kept carrying me to a dimmer place, and continued pressing me. He exhausted me. It was rape. I have no doubt that you were traumatized, and I certainly feel for you, you should never have been put in that position. That being said, nowhere else in either thread have you included this little detail. If you said “I don’t want to”, and he did anyway, that’s rape, no matter what the ages of the involved parties are. However, previously you said “I eventually relented”, which is a different story entirely. Which is it? Did you say no, and he continued ( which is hardly classified as “I eventually relented” ), or are you adding details many years after the fact to try and get others to agree with the point you are tring to make? Also, if the exact same thing happened to a sexually experienced woman who was, say, 20…would you classify what occured as rape or not? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/45 "2004-04-20T20:23:39Z")
> [@](#): > > It sounds to me like his coercion was more than just verbal, but physical, as well. If he had politely walked up to her, spoke only kind words, but held a knife to her throat and she “relented” and laid back and “let him do it,” you’d surely call that rape (at least I hope so!). So he didn’t have a knife, but he had his physical size, ability to lift and carry her and forcefully start removing her clothes. That she chose, at that point, after repeatedly saying no, to just give up fighting with him for fear that his physical intimidation would escalate, that’s still rape. Yes, if he was using physical intimidation and she couldn’t get him to stop, then that’s rape. She had no choice or more properly her ability to choose was overidden by force. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/46 "2004-04-20T20:25:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Not to offend, **Jarbaby** , you are speaking from your own experience, and this is not about you. We’re talking about **Zabali** ’s experience, not yours. Not everything is about you, OK? > . Thanks…no one’s ever told me that before. :rolleyes: Of course I’m speaking from my experience…I can’t speak from anyone else’s. Once again…\*\*The OP said she started this thread to: > [@](#): > > to help get the word out to those who really don’t understand such things so I wanted to help. ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/47 "2004-04-20T20:28:10Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > nocturnal\_tick What you are saying, is easier said than done for me. The old feelings this has dredged up are very potent, and combined with other things that have recently happened hard to banish. It’s hard, when you feel very strongly about a subject, not to speak up passionately for what you believe in. At least, that’s how it is for me. What he did, was very wrong, hurtful, and it needs to be addressed. Read the links I provided, they might provide educational to you. I understand I could never understand the situation you faced, none of us could. And I admire your candor for voicing such a strong opinion on such a emotionally straining topic but I only wanted you to make sure that this wouldn’t cause more losses than gains in the end. Keep strong. If anyone else questions the actions of the OP here they _are_ ball-lickers. Period. I think that those “against” the rape idea, including me at first, believe this. If you were a child that just did what you did to shut your b/f up it is a juvenile excuse to call rape. But now that you state that you said no until the end and even though it wasn’t physical it still makes what happened rape. If you refused throughout I apologise for thinking otherwise. :o **gobear** is right **jarbabyj**. You seem to be creating arguments on your own experiences, not on **Zibali** ’s. You make a good point but it has no bearing if the scenario didn’t fit what you consider rape. However, now that we know otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/48 "2004-04-20T20:28:16Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > For the rest, my last words to him that evening were \*\*“I don’t want to”. Well geez, you forgot to mention that important detail in your story before didnt you? Yes, if thats the case then you where raped. The way you told it at first it sounded like you consented to it after he pestered you for a while, so calm down a bit on those who called you on it. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/49 "2004-04-20T20:29:13Z")
> [@](#): > > You make a good point, smoke. What, can only **jarbayj** see my posts or something? I’d hate to think I was on everyone’s ignore list. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/50 "2004-04-20T20:34:21Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Thanks…no one’s ever told me that before. :rolleyes: If you have been told this before, then you may find it more profitable to ask yourself why you have been told this instead of using snarky smilies by means of retort. > [@](#): > > Of course I’m speaking from my experience…I can’t speak from anyone else’s. Once again…the OP said she started this thread to: so I wanted to help. But the point is that you are not helping by clouding the discussion by confabulating **Zabali’s** story with your own trauma. You are helping to **confuse** the issue instead of elucidating it. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/51 "2004-04-20T20:36:18Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > What, can only **jarbayj** see my posts or something? I’d hate to think I was on everyone’s ignore list. The secret’s out, **Ogre**. You _are_ chopped liver. 😉 Sorry, I must have missed your insights. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/52 "2004-04-20T20:36:49Z")
Timeline: We’re outside talking after his birthday party. He asks me if I’d like to “give him a special present” and names it as being “making love”. I say “No, I’m not ready”. He starts kissing me, fondling me over my clothes. When his hands reach my ass, or breasts, I take them off, and break away from the kiss. He continues to kiss me, and ask “please”, and first “walking” (having his arms around me, and like in dancing, moving towards a direction) me to a dimmer place in his parent’s yard. I say “I don’t want to do this.” and physically resist. He starts in with the “If you loved me, you’d do this with me, I’m 16, and I want to do this, don’t you love me?” phase, while picking me up and trying to carry me to a more private place. I wriggle free, get on my feet and say I’d rather sit on his porch. He was also grabbing my breasts and ass, still over the clothing. I went numb with shock somewhere in there, disbelieving that he’d do this. After that didn’t work he started in with teh “I’ll go find someone who loves me, because you don’t” “I’m so hurt, you don’t love me as much as I love you.” phase. While still trying to carry me off, and he began his attempts to get my shirt off. He was reaching up under my shorts, and under my shirt at this point. This continues, with the with physical advances intermingled with the emotional blackmail. I continue to say “No, I’m not ready” “Stop” “Don’t” etc. Finally, after about 2 hours, I asked him “Will you stop if I do?” He said “Yes” (A price for peace.) I felt I could not get away. I did not want to have sex. I did not say yes, but when he kissed me and picked me up, I didn’t wriggle free. I fought not to cry with bitter resentment. (I’m trembling as I type this, forgive any typos) As he was taking off my shirt, I looked into his eyes, hoping to see that he cared how I felt. I said “I dont’ want to” and he lifted my shirt over my head.I don’t remember too much after that, except the sky was my favorite shade of blue. He knew I didn’t want to, but he took what he wanted from me anyway. I think he walked me home, and handed me a rose from the bush nearby where he “took” me, before he kissed me and headed home himself, but it’s fuzzy. I feel this is almost like the situation where a woman asked her rapist to wear a condom. It was argued that she wasn’t raped because of this. Wel, I asked if he’d stop bothering me if I quite resisting, and he said yes. That doesn’t mean I consented, because my “consent” was forced. I was backed into a corner, and felt I couldn’t get out. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/53 "2004-04-20T20:37:11Z")
I had this whole thing written out and gobear goes ahead and says it way better than I with one piece of a sentence. > [@](#): > > Rape is when you have no choice If the man has not taken away your ability to choose, it should not be called rape. Zabali was not in a position to choose, because she was 13 and being put upon by her boyfriend. If she were 21 at the time, I would have expected her to choose. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/54 "2004-04-20T20:39:37Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > If you have been told this before, then you may find it more profitable to ask yourself why you have been told this instead of using snarky smilies by means of retort. Well, the reason I gave you the smilie is because you know damn well that that claim is the bane of my existence, one I’ve apologized for and tried to rectify and I’ve been trying VERY HARD to avoid being that way on the boards, to the point of restricting my own access and refraining from starting or participating in certain threads. But you said it anyway…complete with the condescending mmmkay because you knew it would hurt my feelings. I saw a pit thread calling for a definition of and information about date rape and I decided to participate. > [@](#): > > But the point is that you are not helping by clouding the discussion by confabulating **Zabali’s** story with your own trauma. You are helping to **confuse** the issue instead of elucidating it. I guess I misread the OP then. I thought this thread was about date rape in general and people’s offhand dismissals of it, much like the thread she linked to and the many websites she provided. If I was wrong, I apologize. Zabali, sorry for hijacking the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/55 "2004-04-20T20:47:06Z")
**jarbabyj** You didn’t hijack the thread. You contributed your own experience and perception of it. You are right, I’m using my personal experience as an anecdote, and wanting to get the word out that date rape can merely seem like an “assholish” guy who didn’t know when to stop. **Tremmie** Giving this much detail is very painful, it’s scraping my soul raw. I did say I’d said “No” repeatedly, and surely even you can admit that this should have been enough? Surely those in doubt can see that? Especially coming from such a young female? Especially since the refusal was phrased “I’m not ready” the first time? This wasn’t enough for you? Well, now you’ve had all the gory details that I can give right now. Do you still doubt? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/56 "2004-04-20T20:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > But you said it anyway…complete with the condescending mmmkay because you knew it would hurt my feelings. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings, and I apologize if I was being too insensitive. Would you rather I say nothing and simply think of you as too self-involved to bother with, or would you rather that I pay you the compliment of respecting you enough to give you constructive criticism? You should know my writing abilities well enough by now to know when I am being deliberately cruel and when I am not. And for goodness sakes don’t stay out of threads because you fear negative reaction. Stand up for yourself and never back down from intimidation. If you keep this up I’m going to be forced to start singing, “Be A Lion” from _The Wiz_ at you, and nobody wants to hear my woefully offkey voice. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/57 "2004-04-20T20:47:25Z")
> [@jarbaby](#): > > Izzy, my definition of rape was stated pretty clearly above. Even if you’re best friends with someone, even if you LIVE with someone, even if you are MAKING OUT with someone naked, if you are uncomfortable and unwilling to proceed with having sex and articulate that by saying NO, I DON’T WANT TO, or STOP, and your partner proceeds to have sex with you (with or without physical violence, Cheesesteak), against your will…that is raped. Well I don’t think it makes a difference if you’re best friends with someone etc. and am quite sure I’ve never said or implied otherwise. Please refrain from putting things into my posts that are not there. > [@](#): > > I thought this thread was about date rape in general and people’s offhand dismissals of it, much like the thread she linked to and the many websites she provided. I thought the thread was about whether astro is a sick bastard, lousy scum and ignorant ass, who is of less worth than a tick on a baboon’s ass. But I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/58 "2004-04-20T20:53:50Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Timeline: > > We’re outside talking after his birthday party. He asks me if I’d like to “give him a special present” and names it as being “making love”. > > I say “No, I’m not ready”. > > He starts kissing me, fondling me over my clothes. When his hands reach my ass, or breasts, I take them off, and break away from the kiss. > > He continues to kiss me, and ask “please”, and first “walking” (having his arms around me, and like in dancing, moving towards a direction) me to a dimmer place in his parent’s yard. > > I say “I don’t want to do this.” and physically resist. > > He starts in with the “If you loved me, you’d do this with me, I’m 16, and I want to do this, don’t you love me?” phase, while picking me up and trying to carry me to a more private place. I wriggle free, get on my feet and say I’d rather sit on his porch. He was also grabbing my breasts and ass, still over the clothing. I went numb with shock somewhere in there, disbelieving that he’d do this. > > After that didn’t work he started in with teh “I’ll go find someone who loves me, because you don’t” “I’m so hurt, you don’t love me as much as I love you.” phase. While still trying to carry me off, and he began his attempts to get my shirt off. He was reaching up under my shorts, and under my shirt at this point. > > This continues, with the with physical advances intermingled with the emotional blackmail. I continue to say “No, I’m not ready” “Stop” “Don’t” etc. > > Finally, after about 2 hours, I asked him “Will you stop if I do?” He said “Yes” (A price for peace.) I felt I could not get away. I did not want to have sex. I did not say yes, but when he kissed me and picked me up, I didn’t wriggle free. I fought not to cry with bitter resentment. (I’m trembling as I type this, forgive any typos) As he was taking off my shirt, I looked into his eyes, hoping to see that he cared how I felt. I said “I dont’ want to” and he lifted my shirt over my head.I don’t remember too much after that, except the sky was my favorite shade of blue. He knew I didn’t want to, but he took what he wanted from me anyway. I think he walked me home, and handed me a rose from the bush nearby where he “took” me, before he kissed me and headed home himself, but it’s fuzzy. > > I feel this is almost like the situation where a woman asked her rapist to wear a condom. It was argued that she wasn’t raped because of this. Wel, I asked if he’d stop bothering me if I quite resisting, and he said yes. That doesn’t mean I consented, because my “consent” was forced. I was backed into a corner, and felt I couldn’t get out. This account is much clearer to me. And yes, based on it, I must agree that you were raped. I’m sincerely sorry. No one should have to experience something like that. As a 13 year old, you did not have the emotional wherewithal to responsibly react to the pressure he placed upon you, and the physical aspects of his behavior, IMO, place it well within the realm of rape. Do you, however, see how your earlier account is much less clear, and based on your earlier statements, we had no reason to believe that any of his actions went past whining, cajoling, and pleading? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/59 "2004-04-20T20:57:51Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And for goodness sakes don’t stay out of threads because you fear negative reaction. Well cripes, I know I’m a masochist, but I don’t really care to walk around with a bullseye on. I’ve been pitted enough for being an attention whore. Sometimes my passion for particular issues gets in the way of levelheaded thinking and I post before thinking of how others will react. My most pressing thought on this issue is as a result of creepy men AND creepy WOMEN. There are assholes who don’t believe in marital rape and there are assholes who cry rape when they haven’t even been touched, as a form of revenge. As a result of this I just think we all need to be careful before we respond to women who say they’ve been raped by simply saying “no you haven’t”. It’s a shame that we have to even consider a false claim because very often not being believed is just as emotionally terrible as having been raped in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/60 "2004-04-20T21:07:10Z")
I can’t believe I am about to say this because I really don’t want to. I really want to say that you were raped **Zibali** , but after your description of events I’m having trouble understanding. > [@Zibali\_Clawbane](#): > > He starts in with the “If you loved me, you’d do this with me, I’m 16, and I want to do this, don’t you love me?” phase, while picking me up and trying to carry me to a more private place. I wriggle free, get on my feet and say I’d rather sit on his porch. He was also grabbing my breasts and ass, still over the clothing. I went numb with shock somewhere in there, disbelieving that he’d do this. > > After that didn’t work he started in with teh “I’ll go find someone who loves me, because you don’t” “I’m so hurt, you don’t love me as much as I love you.” phase. While still trying to carry me off, and he began his attempts to get my shirt off. He was reaching up under my shorts, and under my shirt at this point. From here I believe you undoubtedly in your claim of rape. It’s just this: > [@Zibali\_Clawbane](#): > > Finally, after about 2 hours, I asked him “Will you stop if I do?” He said “Yes” (A price for peace.) 2 hours? You put up with him for two hours? I’m not questioning your actions, it’s just this is the reason young girls need to be protected. And “a price for peace”? Please tell me this isn’t how you intended us to understand it. From what you say, while he was the sexual predator you consented by asking him if he would shut up if he fucked you. What he did was still wrong so tell me that it wasn’t like how I’m thinking now. Because what I’m thinking is that a girl had a terrible thing done to herself to end a childish mind-game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068.md?page=4)