# astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068 "2004-04-20T18:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/61 "2004-04-20T21:08:37Z")
> [@IzzyR](#): > > I thought the thread was about whether astro is a sick bastard, lousy scum and ignorant ass, who is of less worth than a tick on a baboon’s ass. But I could be wrong. Yes, this thread’s purpose was **secondarily** to stand up for myself, and tell a person how they’d wronged me, and how I felt about that wrongdoing, and them. Primarily, it was to attempt to clarify such a “grey” area as date rape. People think that there has to be actual physical force for it to be rape. That’s not the case, and there have been convictions based on events where there was no physical force, but implications of bad events if sex was not given, or deception. It can be inferred that there have been cases of a therapist/physician/minister convincing a woman that “sex” with them is part of what she needs to do to get well, because Kansas law covers those situations, read my link in the OP. It also covers judges and police officers accepting sex as a “payment” for crimes etc. I think it will also expand to cover situations such as happened to me. Yes, it’s grey, but it was also rape. **Ogre** Yes, I know in my emotionally charged state I probably wasn’t as clear as I could have been. This does not excuse the quotes in my OP from **astro**. Not one bit, because he continued to harm, even when it was apparent that he was being hurtful with what he said, as evidenced by his first blustering post in this thread. You didn’t bluster, you looked for clarification. He could have too. Please, just consider that “rape” isn’t necessarily black and white, or a matter of believing him or her. Often it’s “grey”, and there are elements of truth coming from each side. Do what you can to understand the dynamics of date rape, and take steps to spread understanding to young people if you are in a position to do so. On preview, **jarbabyj** I agree. It’s crappy that there are such horrid people of both genders. Those who are actually wolves, and those who “Cry wolf”. That does not mean that trivializing and degrading a person’s word is the proper course of action. Trying to get to the bottom of things, and see what makes sense (if rape ever can make sense) is a better thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/62 "2004-04-20T21:11:25Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > **jarbabyj** You didn’t hijack the thread. You contributed your own experience and perception of it. You are right, I’m using my personal experience as an anecdote, and wanting to get the word out that date rape can merely seem like an “assholish” guy who didn’t know when to stop. > > **Tremmie** Giving this much detail is very painful, it’s scraping my soul raw. I did say I’d said “No” repeatedly, and surely even you can admit that this should have been enough? > > Surely those in doubt can see that? Especially coming from such a young female? Especially since the refusal was phrased “I’m not ready” the first time? This wasn’t enough for you? Well, now you’ve had all the gory details that I can give right now. Do you still doubt? I can understand how it must be hard to tell other people about what happened that day, and i do believe you where raped now after you pointed out that you where still saying no while the act was taking place. All i meant to say is that the way you told it at first it sounded like you eventually consented, which was not the case. Pestering a girl for sex until she consents doesn’t make you a rapist, it only makes you an asshole, i think thats all everyone who disagreed was trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/63 "2004-04-20T21:11:55Z")
> [@IzzyR](#): > > **Bricker** , it was my impression that statutory rape does not imply if the older partner is also a minor or is at least within a few years of the age of the other partner. In this case, the guy was 16. Completely dependent on the jurisdiction. In Virginia, for example, Code § 18.2-63 provides: > [@](#): > > If any person carnally knows, without the use of force, a child thirteen years of age or older but under fifteen years of age, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 felony. > > However, if such child is thirteen years of age or older but under fifteen years of age and consents to sexual intercourse and the accused is a minor and such consenting child is three years or more the accused’s junior, the accused shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. If such consenting child is less than three years the accused’s junior, the accused shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The OP has added details to her encounter. Based on those, there’s absolutely no question that sufficient evidence exists to sustain a charge of rape. If this were presented in the context of a trial, it would be up to the jury to decide if the physical aspect of repeatedly picking up and carrying away the OP was enough that a reasonable person would feel physically threatened; to my way of thinking, it’s easily characterized as physical force. Threats do not have to be explicit in order to work. I would point out, however, that this is NOT the situation painted in the original post, and I reiterate my conclusions concerning mere entreaties, pestering, and nagging. “You’d do it if you loved me,” and even “I’ll break up with you if you don’t,” cannot, by themselves, create a rape, even if said repeatedly in the face of an initial refusal. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/64 "2004-04-20T21:21:58Z")
Whoa, we have a case where a 16 year old male begged and pleaded with his girlfriend for sex? When did 16 year olds start doing that!?! ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/65 "2004-04-20T21:25:52Z")
**Brutus** you’re a fucking arsehole to be joining this long into a serious thread with some lame line like that. Go home. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/66 "2004-04-20T21:32:55Z")
**nocturnal\_tick** (Psst, the name is Z **a** bali…) Firstly, it might not have been exactly 2 hours that he pestered me (though it felt like even longer). I know it was 7:30ish when his party ended, and I didn’t get home until about 9:30ish because my mom commented that the party had lasted quite a while. We did talk about various kidly stuff for a while, but I don’t know how long. Secondly, by the time I asked him that question, I was in a state of blank, numb shock. I didn’t know which way was up, and all I wanted was for his pestering to stop. I didn’t want to have sex, and as I’ve said, the last statment I made that evening was saying this. I was 13, confused by someone I trusted’s lack of respect for me, hurt, and spooked. He was overwhelming in his demands, and although I didn’t actually try to head home, I did move away from the dim areas. He’d take me right back, so I thought I didn’t have a chance if I tried to head home, and it didn’t even really occur to me to try because he wasn’t taking “No” as an answer elsewhere. He got me to the point of such mental exhaustion that I’d have agreed to let him slice my arm open if it meant he’d leave me alone afterwards. I’m not kidding, I’d have taken a tangible wound to stop his pestering. Does this ease your mind? I wasn’t in a mental state (not to mention at an age) to give consent, I was bewildered. Not to mention, I felt that if I didn’t quit resisting, that he’d take what he wanted anyway, because he kept carrying me into dim places, and trying to take off my shirt, and grabbing me. I was also emotionally, and even physically exhausted, and unable to continue resisting. I’ve known people that said to me “Aw, all he did was pester you into having sex, that’s typical 16 year old behavior.” It hurts to give out so much detail. It was more than pestering, though some call it that, it was pressuring, and coercion. It was statutory rape, and also date rape. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/67 "2004-04-20T21:34:38Z")
It seems to me a large problem between **Zabali** and **astro** was miscommunication. First, I think most people would agree that \*\*Zabali’s \*\* experience was statutory rape. It seems astro’s comments are generally aimed at situations in which an adult woman claims she was raped after being pestered, cajoled, or otherwise verbally convinced to have sex. Second, it’s clear that \*\*Zabali’s \*\* original account didn’t tell the whole story. From the first description, it sounded like he was just asking over and over, and saying things to try to convince her. If she had been above the age of consent, I don’t think that counts as rape. However, I think if a man repeatedly physically prevents a woman from leaving a place, while demanding and demanding sex, that constitutes a clear implied threat of violence if she doesn’t give in, and thus is rape. Also, if two people are lying together, even if she has previously said yes, if she says “I don’t want to,” and he proceeds, that is rape. Personally, I don’t like the term “date rape.” It implies that it’s not “real” rape. I can understand having aggravation standards if there’s a serious physical assault along with the rape, but obtaining sex from someone against their will is rape, whether direct force or threat of force was used. I suspect \*\*gobear \*\* used the exampe he did to highlight how wrong it is to trivialize what his friend went through by equating it with the experience of a woman who allowed herself to be convinced to have sex and then had second thoughts the morning after, not to imply that only extreme violence equals rape. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/68 "2004-04-20T21:36:36Z")
As much as I sympathize with the OP, I now see my parents’ wisdom in not letting me date alone with a guy until 15-1/2. At 13 it never would have occured to me to have one boyfriend, nor to allow him to be three years older than me. Group dates were the norm until then, and it was almost impossible to be alone anyway. Nobody had cars or their own rooms in my neighborhood (too many siblings!). By the time I was dating one on one I had the self-esteem and strength to make any fight a little more equal, though of course I would have been vulnerable to a truly determined guy. I’m a little confused–this was right in somebody’s yard, after a family party, you were there for nearly 2-1/2 hours, and nobody came out to look for you two? Nobody came by on the sidewalk? (of course, here in NY hardly anybody has yards to begin with). Your parents and his just let you two alone for all that time? The first fault lies with the boy, of course, but it’s a shame nobody tried to check up on you. Did you try yelling a bit, so people would come out and see what was going on? Not trying to be a jerk, but it just seems odd. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/69 "2004-04-20T21:50:19Z")
**Mehitabel** His parent’s house was situated in such a way that the lone streetlight was (the city was small, and had one streetlight per block, and it was a very tree filled block too) blocked from penetrating their backyard. They had short “hedge” type bushes on one side, and several large rose bushes, as well as a shed/garage that added even more shade and seclusion. Their neighbors were elderly, and went to sleep early. His parents were watching their favorite television shows, and “trusted” him to be honorable. I don’t think they had a clue he had “those urges” at the time. I don’t rememeber anyone being around, though they might have been. The mentality “mind your own business” was prevalent though. I think it would have taken him actually beating me before they’d have taken action, if they would have. They would only seen a young guy and girl involved in “horseplay”. It’s an odd phenomenon sometimes found in small towns. Everyone knows everyone else (except “newcomers”) and also knows their business, however, they keep up the pretense of “minding their own business” when it comes to the idea of direct intervention in their neighbor’s lives. They won’t call the cops, because they “mind their own business” and “don’t want to get involved”. ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/70 "2004-04-20T21:55:01Z")
Sorry about the misspelled name **Zabali** and now, looking back at what you have said and what I first thought I can’t believe that I could make some criticism out of something so trivial. I guess the Pit really brings out the worst in me. Where’s that smack smilie when you need it? He went beyond what any 16-year-old, however fucking horny, would do to persuade a girl. It wasn’t persuasion, it was coercion. And considering the fact that you were too young to have any experience it was rape. Pure and simple. Forget trying to justify it by calling it statutory. It should trying to justify it as the rape that everyone knows. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/71 "2004-04-20T21:56:39Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > The secret’s out, **Ogre**. You _are_ chopped liver. 😉 > > Sorry, I must have missed your insights. Ironically, I missed this response earlier. Sorry. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/72 "2004-04-20T21:59:09Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > I’m a little confused–this was right in somebody’s yard, after a family party, you were there for nearly 2-1/2 hours, and nobody came out to look for you two? Nobody came by on the sidewalk? (of course, here in NY hardly anybody has yards to begin with). Your parents and his just let you two alone for all that time? The first fault lies with the boy, of course, but it’s a shame nobody tried to check up on you. Did you try yelling a bit, so people would come out and see what was going on? Having been a 13-14 year old girl in a strikingly similar situation (with a much less traumatic outcome, thankfully) I can say that yelling to get attention would not have even been considered. The embarrassment would have been worse in her mind than what had happened so far. Hindsight is great but at the time, I know from experience that getting parents or other adults involved probably wasn’t even considered an option. Of course, in my situation, I told someone I trusted later about what happened. She, worried about me, told my parents and the next time I was expected to be alone with him (he was the son of family friends and we were supposed to go on a nature hike together–alone), my parents just laughed and looked at me with that proud"Isn’t our little girl growing up fast?" look and told me, winking, that if he “tried” anything, I could just throw rocks at him. So, calling for parents doesn’t always help anyway. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/73 "2004-04-20T22:12:47Z")
What part of “he’d picked me up and was undressing me” are some of you moron’s missing? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/74 "2004-04-20T22:22:58Z")
Couple o’ comments and a question. 1. From **Zabali** ’s original account, leaving the age thing aside, I’d have said she was _not_ raped. Giving into whining != rape 2. From **Zabali** ’s clarified account, leaving the age thing aside, she clearly was and the guy deserves to be horsewhipped (as a start). 3. The key difference is, not violence (I agree that being beaten up isn’t a necessary…um…“ingredient” for rape), but force and force or the threat of force can constitute threats of violence. It gets fuzzy, to me, on exactly where where “force” comes into play…“If you don’t, I won’t love you any more” is _not_ force, IMO. “If you don’t, I’ll tell every guy on campus that you _did_ and they’ll think you’re a slut who puts out.” mmmmmmaybe. “If you don’t, I’ll break everything in your apartment.” does. I can’t think of a general rule, but “I know it when I hear it.” 4. That said, why trivialize rape by calling it “date-rape”? Who cares whether you were on a date or not? If it’s rape, it’s rape whether you’re on a date, walking along the beach by yourself, on a cruise ship with your husband but not in the mood or wearing slutty clothes while wandering down dark alleys. If somone uses force or the threat of force to make you have sex, you’ve been raped. Why seperate out “date” rape? Rape is rape. Isn’t it? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/75 "2004-04-20T22:27:09Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > What part of “he’d picked me up and was undressing me” are some of you moron’s missing? Maybe you should have read the whole thread before posting and noticed that no one is insisting that the OP wasn’t raped now that she has clarified the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/76 "2004-04-20T22:30:08Z")
**Fenris** Yeah, and the laws are being written to reflect that. There are laws that already do not make the distinction between whether or not the woman “knew the person” or not. It’s called “date rape” as a way of explanation/catagorizing. I don’t find the term offensive, because to me, it’s still rape even though I wasn’t beaten to a pulp that first time. The law doesn’t make a distinction when it comes to prosecuting the crime, though I bet most defense attorneys do when presenting their case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/77 "2004-04-20T22:35:13Z")
Couple of thought experiments: A adult woman is told… (A) (By a fiance) Have sex with me now, or I won’t marry you. (B) (By a voodoo practictioner) Have sex with me now, or I will put a voodoo curse on you. © (By an employer) Have sex with me now, or I will fire you. (D) (By her husband’s employer) Have sex with me now, or I will fire your husband. (E) (By a potential employer) Have sex with me now, or I won’t hire you. (F) (By a client who has discovered her embezzling money) Have sex with me now, or I’ll call the police and turn you in. Let’s save discussion on sexual harrassment – many of the above are undoubtedly civilly actionable. I’m asking if a crime exists. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/78 "2004-04-20T22:37:24Z")
**Zabali** , I wanted to add that I totally understand why you didn’t want to share the traumatic details. Obviously, you were violated, and it’s perfectly reasonable not to want to delve deeply into that memory. It just wound up being confusing to some folks here. Also, not only do I sympathize with your feeling traumatized, I empathize with what it’s like to be a young girl and get yourself in a situation you can’t handle. I got involved with a boy my own age (and I was 17, not 13), and one day wound up with both of us completely naked in my dorm room, before it struck me that it was a bad situation to be in, since I didn’t want to have intercourse. Even being four years older than you were and not facing physical intimidation, I cringed at the thought of screaming for help if the situation escalated. I was just lucky that the guy, while slutty, was not an evil coercive asshole. So I think anyone who is saying “You _should_ have done X, Y, Z” is mistaken. That’s the reason statutory rape laws exist after all - at 13, you don’t necessarily have the resources to deal with that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/79 "2004-04-20T22:39:33Z")
adult = experienced, knoweledgable, and self assured (if they are emotionally healthy) kid = not as experienced or knoweledgable, and still growing self assured What’s your point in asking those questions, **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068/80 "2004-04-20T22:44:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Couple of thought experiments: > > A adult woman is told… > > (A) (By a fiance) Have sex with me now, or I won’t marry you. Not a crime. The woman should at this point understand that the scumbag is not worth marrying and move on. > [@](#): > > (B) (By a voodoo practictioner) Have sex with me now, or I will put a voodoo curse on you. Not a crime. Silly threat. > [@](#): > > (C) (By an employer) Have sex with me now, or I will fire you. Definitely criminal, in my book. I’m afraid, however, I’m not familiar enough with the law to name an applicable crime. > [@](#): > > (D) (By her husband’s employer) Have sex with me now, or I will fire your husband. Same logic as above. > [@](#): > > (E) (By a potential employer) Have sex with me now, or I won’t hire you. Should be criminal, but probably is not. Unethical, yes, and probably proscribed by field-specific ethical bodies (i.e. the Bar,) but I don’t know if it is criminal. > [@](#): > > (F) (By a client who has discovered her embezzling money) Have sex with me now, or I’ll call the police and turn you in. Criminal. Blackmail. IA (obviously) NAL. Tell me how I did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astro-its-not-my-fault-no-means-no/241068.md?page=5)