# Astroturf: President Bush's "genuine" leadership with the economy. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889 "2003-01-25T18:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/21 "2003-01-26T03:38:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chance the Gardener \* > \*\*I This cheapens the value of the editorial page, \*\* :: choke :: ## Bwah-hahahaha! Dear Editor, Never in my life have I been so offended as when I saw a man walking a dog and the dog was allowed to _urinate_ on the 16th Street Mall! Something _must_ be done or what will become of our fair city? I demand that a law be passed that requires all dogs to wear diapers. It’s more sanitary AND it’s a step towards doggie modesty. I.P. Freely * * * To Our Commander in THIEF! You may think that the people are behind you, but they were behind HITLER too! I have evidence that you were behind the Bay of Pigs fiasco! A. Nasshole * * * Dear Editor, I can’t believe that you printed that cartoon on the COMICS page where everyone can SEE it. To THINK that our children should be subject to seeing a CAT _torture_ a dog! Why some people think that the animal cruelty in Garfield is funny is beyond me. Won’t SOMEBODY think of the children? Anni Mallo Ver * * * etc. :rolleyes: Somehow, I don’t think most reasonable people see the “Letters to the Editor” column as a shining beacon of hope in an otherwise bleak world. I put the Letters to the Editor page somewhere about three steps below talk radio and about 1 step above some idiot on a soapbox at a protest rally in terms of intelligent discourse. But if “Letters to the Editor” is your primary source for information, it _does_ make many of the other posistions you’ve taken make much more sense. And are you still standing by your “This is evil.” comment, **Chancie?** I’d love to hear your explaination of how a form letter that expresses one’s opinion accurately, if not originally is in the same category as the Holocaust. :: remembers that “Letters to the Editor” are **Chance’s** primary source of information :: Ah. Now it becomes clear. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/22 "2003-01-26T03:56:12Z")
Great article on the subject, courtesy of Tom Tomorrow’s 'blog: [http://www.bristolnews.com/features/editorial/MGBWEKZ14BD.html](http://www.bristolnews.com/features/editorial/MGBWEKZ14BD.html) Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/23 "2003-01-26T15:37:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, it should be stopped now that the groundswell is in favor of a president whose policys you don’t care for. > > If it’s been going on for a long time, it was just as wrong for the DNC to do it, or Amnesty International, or the Sierra Club, or whoever. > > I stand by my original contention: you’re rankled because it’s your ox that getting gored. **—DAVEW0071** Um… groundswell? Hardly. Mass mailings are easy. These swarms of dittos are as thoughtful and integrite as spam. As to its being wrong for the DNC or Amnesty International or the Sierra Club to do: I already said so on this thread. Twice. Please don’t selectively ignore facts that don’t happen to support your support for your man in the White House. As to “my ox being gored”: again, I’ve never approved of these tactics, and have long been critical of anyone who advocates them. I don’t approve of this spamming in general, but when it’s presented in the media, purporting to be something that it isn’t, then it’s simply nefarious. > [@](#): > > I put the Letters to the Editor page somewhere about three steps below talk radio and about 1 step above some idiot on a soapbox at a protest rally in terms of intelligent discourse. **—Fenris** Hmm… Your food chain has talk radio above protest rallies and protest rallies above writing letters. That’s the view from the right, all right. You know, you have a better chance of having your entire letter printed _in context_ on an editorial page, as opposed to a call-in show where the host has to remain entirely in control, using the ability to cut you off whenever a caller starts to lead the show away from the host’s views. > [@](#): > > And are you still standing by your “This is evil.” comment, Chancie? I’d love to hear your explaination of how a form letter that expresses one’s opinion accurately, if not originally is in the same category as the Holocaust. **—Fenris** , again Sure do. Evil is the erosion of good. The bastardization of a public forum (public forums are good) is a bad, counterproductive thing, and thus _evil_. But you’re comparing it to the holocaust? C’mon, **Fennie** —get a little perspective, please. Sugar is unhealthy. Arsenic is unhealthy. An ounce of sugar doesn’t have as bad an effect on you as an ounce of arsenic, yet they’re still unhealthy. It’s a matter of degrees. Get it? And as to your contention that no one cares about what’s written on the editorial pages: if that’s so, then why would these Republican astroturf groups waste their time in the first place? How do you suppose they justify the effort, if it doesn’t actually do anything? ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/24 "2003-01-26T15:46:11Z")
It is worth noting that about 150 rich guys control pretty much ALL the major media in this country. Most of the TV stations, newspapers, cable companies, and so forth are owned by large corporations… which are controlled by these people. Food for thought, no? ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/25 "2003-01-26T16:10:38Z")
For what it’s worth, **Chance** , I too think the practice is reprehensible. “Two Wrongs” (or ad populum) don’t make it right. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/26 "2003-01-26T17:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chance the Gardener \* > \*\*Hmm… Your food chain has talk radio above protest rallies and protest rallies above writing letters. \*\* No, it has talk-radio at the top of low-brow commentary, letter writing at the middle, and rabble-rousing at the bottom. Try to get an opposing bit of info into one of those idiotic anti-Free Trade rallies/riots. At least some talk-shows allow an opposing viewpoint. Pat Buchanan had a point/counterpoint type show with…um…David Corn? that was fantastic: two psychotic extremests giving each other apoplexy. Much higher on the food chain than a letter-to-the editor page. And much more entertaining too. \*\* > [@](#): > > Sure do. Evil is the erosion of good. The bastardization of a public forum (public forums are good) is a bad, counterproductive thing, and thus _evil_. \*\* I thought that the current leftie mantra is that the media is controlled by corporations who do the bidding of their dread masters (see **Wang Ka** ’s comment for a perfect example). How’s that a public forum? It’s a stage where the most outrageous, stupid and/or shocking letters are chosen primarily for shock value: it’s not like there’s actually any pretense of discourse. \*\* > [@](#): > > But you’re comparing it to the holocaust? \*\* No, by using the word “Evil”, you’re inviting the comparison. Either you’re watering the term “evil” down to meaninglessness, or you’re having an insane overreaction. Do you consider going 1 mile an hour over the speed limit on the highway “evil” as well? How 'bout not finishing _every_ bit of food on your plate? Is that “evil”? Both of those examples are “erosions of good” too. \*\* > [@](#): > > C’mon, **Fennie** —get a little perspective, please. Sugar is unhealthy. Arsenic is unhealthy. An ounce of sugar doesn’t have as bad an effect on you as an ounce of arsenic, yet they’re still unhealthy. It’s a matter of degrees. Get it?\*\* To more use your analogy more accurately, you’re saying “Sugar is a deadly poison” when you mean “Sugar’s not very nutritious”. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/27 "2003-01-26T17:08:27Z")
**Fred** —Exactly. As I’ve stated several times already: I wouldn’t approve of people who support my views doing this, either. Nor would I back an astroturf campaign to fight against policy that I feel is wrong—I think people should fight for what they believe in, and stand up for what they believe in. I think this excerpt from the link that **DoctorJ** provided sums it up pretty well: > [@](#): > > ``` > BUT WHAT REALLY worries me, I guess, is the notion that we should all be singing the same song, or even singing off the same page. > > It wasn't party discipline or uniformity of thought that made America great, after all -- certainly not people sending in letters to the editor that they didn't write. It was a majestic cacophony of voices, raised in perpetual argument, all counterpoint rather than harmony. It was original thinking. It was a passion for freedom, an eagerness to take part in the greatest experiment the world has ever known. > > ``` Really, astroturf violates the spirit of democracy. It’s as simple as that. As an advocate of democracy, I find it reprehensible, too, and I’ve long spoken out against it. But I find this particularly odious, since this is an attempt to mask a central directive from the Republican Party as many individuals’ opinions. This is insulting, and above all it’s dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/28 "2003-01-26T17:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I thought that the current leftie mantra is that the media is controlled by corporations who do the bidding of their dread masters. **—Fenris** “Leftie mantra,” huh? I don’t think so. This is the truth, but it’s certainly not a mantra. In fact, this point is largely ignored by much of America. It is, however, more closely noted by non-Americans. And what are you trying to say, anyway? That over 90% of all major media outlets in the United States are _not_ controlled by a handful of large corporations? List a few major media outlets that are _not_ in the hands of large corporations. Anyway, I maintain that astroturf is evil, because it’s a deadly poison to free expression, and free expression in the United States is, regrettably, endangered right now. Your analogy concerning driving one mile over the speed limit being “evil” is flawed, because how does that erode good? Who does that hurt? Where’s the greater campaign to alter others’ standard of behavior? Speeding can be unsafe, but unless there’s a campaign of organized speeders out there to destroy highway safety, “evil” doesn’t even figure into it. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/29 "2003-01-26T17:44:37Z")
You have yet to explain how it is a poison to free expression. No one was forced to send these letters in. They signed off on them and decided to express their views in this way. The newspapers were not forced to print these letters. There is no danger of free expression being violated because of this tactic. Newspapers are free not to print the letters. People are still free to express their beliefs however they want. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/30 "2003-01-26T18:07:18Z")
\*\*Neurotik—\*\*Newspapers are certainly free not to print the letters, but that’s hardly the issue here. The fact is, this tactic is a way of _tricking_ newspapers into violating their own editorial policies against printing a national party’s press releases on their editorial pages. While I do support the right of a paper to impliment a policy to only print press releases of the Replicratic Party or the Tulip Fanciers Society or what have you, most editorial staffs don’t want to do it because there’s still a notion of how letters to the editor are supposed to reflect individuals’ opinions. Very often there’s a confusion that if something’s legal, it’s also got to be good for us. There is no issue of legality here. I’m talking about the quality of free expression, and how astroturf compromises the whole point of free expression. What makes democracy great is how it’s an open forum of ideas. Encouraging people to sign their names to form letters cheapens the value of speaking one’s mind. People should be _dis_couraged to express themselves in this manner, because the end product will surely be to reduce free expression to a series of homogenized spam campaigns. I don’t think I can make it any clearer than that. If anything I’ve said is still fuzzy to you or has any holes that you perceive, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/31 "2003-01-26T18:09:56Z")
> [@](#): > > You have yet to explain how it is a poison to free expression. Bandwidth is limited. If pubbie ditto-heads fill up all space with intellectually dihonest endorsements of the Big Lie, there will be less room for honest and thoughtful discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889/32 "2003-01-26T18:17:01Z")
**Neurotik** I know exactly what I am talking about. I have been the chief editor in a Finnish paper and a Swedish paper. The first thing a newspaper, or weekly/monthly magazine should do is to check that the letters published on it’s most read page is not a chain-letter or a leaf-let. If the paper can’t even do that, how can it select news from ‘news’? Then it is more worth to read its advertisements (who are the real editors in most papers) and possible TV-programs. The news are in the same line: Reuters writes something and hundreds of papers makes the ‘cut and paste’. To some extent I understand this, but usually there is no follow ups or back-ground information. Just the jumping to the next ‘HEADLINE’, and distributing news like a farmer distributes horse-shit on his fields. I stand at what I earlier wrote: **"They are nothing more than parrots: feed them (with stories) and they sing Your songs."** Maybe I should put it in the form “their songs.” **Wang-Ka** wrote very truthfully: > [@](#): > > It is worth noting that about 150 rich guys control pretty much ALL the major media in this country. Most of the TV stations, newspapers, cable companies, and so forth are owned by large corporations… which are controlled by these people. I just want to add that the concentration of control is also the problem of the press in the other parts of the world. “The **Free** Press” is just a legend, that comes true in some papers…, sometimes. Henry [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/astroturf-president-bushs-genuine-leadership-with-the-economy/150889.md?page=1)