# Asymmetric Warfare and Proportionality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/1 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")
I have been waiting for Hamas to secure a hostage- Israel have made it clear that one of their only interests is to secure its own citizens and have paid a high price to rescue such abductees before. Perhaps there will be a little more proportionality now. But not if this is a typical response: “Reports of the kidnapping provoked a furious backlash from Israel, with former deputy defence minister, Danny Danon saying: ‘If we don’t get the soldier back within a few hours we should start levelling Gaza.’” Read more: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2712656/Israel-Hamas-agree-72-hour-humanitarian-ceasefire-starting-morning.html#ixzz399mxx3LU](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2712656/Israel-Hamas-agree-72-hour-humanitarian-ceasefire-starting-morning.html#ixzz399mxx3LU) Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook There we have it in a nutshell- asymmetric warfare and Proportionality- Hamas can only win by losing and Israel cannot win without being disproportionate. Meanwhile, watching from the stands… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/2 "2014-08-01T16:43:36Z")
Here’s hoping Lieutenant Goldin comes home safely. It’s a little silly to see Hamas preparing to say “look how badly Israel is treating us based on just a little kidnapping, suicide bombing, and terror tunnels”, but no doubt the gullible assholes will fall for it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/3 "2014-08-01T16:52:19Z")
It’s a like a little guy picking a fight with a giant. Does the giant have to hit the little guy as hard as he can? No. But he doesn’t NOT have to hit him as hard as he can either. Basically Hamas does whatever it can to provoke Israel. Israel responds by saying “if you hit us, we’ll hit you ten times as hard because we can and fuck you.” Then both sides send their talking heads on the news to complain about what jerks the other side are. It’s not really an issue of “gullible assholes”. It’s more ideology based. Pro Palestinians will support Hamas. Pro Israels will support Israel. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/4 "2014-08-01T17:10:47Z")
I really think that Israel’s best response is not shelling but in specifically targeting the leadership of Hamas. Old men start wars, but young men fight wars. Convincing the Hamas leadership that their days could be numbered might pay greater dividends without that indiscriminate bloodshed by ordinary Gazans. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/5 "2014-08-01T17:17:32Z")
When assholes collide… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/6 "2014-08-01T17:19:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Here’s hoping Lieutenant Goldin comes home safely. > > It’s a little silly to see Hamas preparing to say “look how badly Israel is treating us based on just a little kidnapping, suicide bombing, and terror tunnels”, but no doubt the gullible assholes will fall for it. > > Regards, > Shodan There are those of us who believe that both sides are acting recklessly and disproportionately.What Israel is doing is little different to what was done by the government in Syria- the shelling and air-strikes on residential areas. It seems that war crimes have been committed on both sides; whether the perpetrators will be brought to justice is a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/7 "2014-08-01T17:20:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s a like a little guy picking a fight with a giant. Does the giant have to hit the little guy as hard as he can? No. But he doesn’t NOT have to hit him as hard as he can either. > > Basically Hamas does whatever it can to provoke Israel. Israel responds by saying “if you hit us, we’ll hit you ten times as hard because we can and fuck you.” Then both sides send their talking heads on the news to complain about what jerks the other side are. > > It’s not really an issue of “gullible assholes”. It’s more ideology based. Pro Palestinians will support Hamas. Pro Israels will support Israel. Pro-humans will support neither and criticise both. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/8 "2014-08-01T17:28:45Z")
Once again, in just war theory “proportionality” does NOT mean that each side must get a fair shake in war! I have no idea where this notion has come from, but it is notable for its stupidity. It is akin to saying that it is “unfair” for cops to use overwhelming numbers, guns and dogs when confronted with a murderer - they must take him on mano-a-mano, armed just like the murderer. WTF? In point of fact, “proportionality” means that WHEN PURSUING A LEGITIMATE MILITARY OBJECTIVE, any side must use means which a “proportional” to that objective (that is, the risks to civilians must be minimized)- not to the efforts made by the other side against it! Edit: in case it is unclear, “leveling Gaza” in response to a kidnapping is NOT a proportionate response. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/9 "2014-08-01T17:30:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > When assholes collide… Punk Band Name. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/10 "2014-08-01T17:31:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Once again, in just war theory “proportionality” does NOT mean that each side must get a fair shake in war! > > I have no idea where this notion has come from, but it is notable for its stupidity. It is akin to saying that it is “unfair” for cops to use overwhelming numbers, guns and dogs when confronted with a murderer - they must take him on mano-a-mano, armed just like the murderer. WTF? > > In point of fact, “proportionality” means that WHEN PURSUING A LEGITIMATE MILITARY OBJECTIVE, any side must use means which a “proportional” to that objective (that is, the risks to civilians must be minimized)- not to the efforts made by the other side against it! I believe nothing else. Both sides have been disproportionate. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/11 "2014-08-01T17:37:01Z")
No. Disproportionate would be a 30 day siege that results in 40,000 dead but Hamas eliminated. This is tit for tat, except that one side is actually competent. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/12 "2014-08-01T17:37:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I believe nothing else. Both sides have been disproportionate. In order to know that, you would have to know how effective Israel’s military actions have been against their legitimate military objectives (or rather, how effective those undertaking them reasonably thought they would be). Seems to me rather too little in the way of data to know that. In the case of Hamas, the calculus is easier - they generally do not attempt to attack military targets. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/13 "2014-08-01T17:38:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Pro Palestinians will support Hamas. Pro Israels will support Israel. I’m generally a Palestinian sympathizer, but I wouldn’t weep if every single member of Hamas (and of ISIS, and of the Taliban, and of Hezbollah) were rounded up and shot just for being a member. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/14 "2014-08-01T17:41:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In order to know that, you would have to know how effective Israel’s military actions have been against their legitimate military objectives (or rather, how effective those undertaking them reasonably thought they would be). Seems to me rather too little in the way of data to know that. > > In the case of Hamas, the calculus is easier - they generally do not attempt to attack military targets. We have the UN already talking about war crimes on both sides. that will do for me. War crimes are never proportionate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/15 "2014-08-01T17:49:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > We have the UN already talking about war crimes on both sides. that will do for me. War crimes are never proportionate. The UN is a political body, that is swift to condemn Israel with or without evidence. Relying on “talk” about war crimes to make a determination strikes me as abandoning critical thinking. Such “talk” is not evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/16 "2014-08-01T17:55:15Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I really think that Israel’s best response is not shelling but in specifically targeting the leadership of Hamas. Some reports place that leadership in a bunker below a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/17 "2014-08-01T17:58:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There are those of us who believe that both sides are acting recklessly and disproportionately.What Israel is doing is little different to what was done by the government in Syria- the shelling and air-strikes on residential areas. Like I said. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Sheikh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Sheikh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Sheikh)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/18 "2014-08-01T17:59:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m generally a Palestinian sympathizer, but I wouldn’t weep if every single member of Hamas (and of ISIS, and of the Taliban, and of Hezbollah) were rounded up and shot just for being a member. But why not include every member of us and israeli government? I used to think that terrorism was killing civilians for political causes; but obviously -language aside- this makes bin laden a peace pigeon. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/19 "2014-08-01T17:59:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I have been waiting for Hamas to secure a hostage- I suggest you don’t say those words in the same room as an Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/20 "2014-08-01T18:11:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suggest you don’t say those words in the same room as an Israeli. Disproportionate response! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=2)