# Asymmetric Warfare and Proportionality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/21 "2014-08-01T19:02:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The UN is a political body, that is swift to condemn Israel with or without evidence. > > Relying on “talk” about war crimes to make a determination strikes me as abandoning critical thinking. Such “talk” is not evidence. They have accused BOTH sides of identified war crimes. Hardly biased. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/22 "2014-08-01T19:03:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suggest you don’t say those words in the same room as an Israeli. Why? Might he come over and demolish my house as a punishment and kill my family. Are they all that dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/23 "2014-08-01T19:05:27Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Some reports place that leadership in a bunker below a hospital. Source? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/24 "2014-08-01T19:06:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said. > > Regards, > Shodan I too hope he gets home safely. I suspect it will cost Israel some of its war aims. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/25 "2014-08-01T19:08:15Z")
Is it only Palestinians that cannot call captured soldiers on the battlefield ‘prisoners’ but must instead be kidnappers? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/26 "2014-08-01T19:13:09Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > They have accused BOTH sides of identified war crimes. Hardly biased. I does not follow that even-handedly accusing both sides makes one “unbiased”. Particularly when one of the “sides” openly and publicy celebrates committing war craimes. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/27 "2014-08-01T19:16:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Is it only Palestinians that cannot call captured soldiers on the battlefield ‘prisoners’ but must instead be kidnappers? By no means. Any group who deliberately captures enemy soldiers and basically holds them for ransom or to extort concessions could be put in a similar category. > [@](#): > > Perhaps there will be a little more proportionality now. Why would there be a ‘little more proportionality now’? What does that even mean to you? > [@](#): > > “Reports of the kidnapping provoked a furious backlash from Israel, with former deputy defence minister, Danny Danon saying: ‘If we don’t get the soldier back within a few hours we should start levelling Gaza.’” Come back when/if they actually do that and you might be onto something. SAYING it is really just that…words and wind. > [@](#): > > There we have it in a nutshell- asymmetric warfare and Proportionality- Hamas can only win by losing and Israel cannot win without being disproportionate. As others have noted, I don’t think you understand what proportionality actually is, nor what a disproportionate response is. A disproportional response from Israel to the rocket attacks would be something like carpet bombing of a large population center in Gaza with the intent of killing a few folks from Hamas. Mis-spelling ‘levelling’ might be a close second. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, watching from the stands… That green and white paint on your face really sets off your eyes… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/28 "2014-08-01T19:17:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I does not follow that even-handedly accusing both sides makes one “unbiased”. > > Particularly when one of the “sides” openly and publicy celebrates committing war craimes. IIRC most countries deny war crimes, while insisting that what they are doing is justified. How is Hamas here different from Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/29 "2014-08-01T19:19:58Z")
On the use of language, John Kerry has just called the taking of the Israeli soldier ‘barbaric’. Does that means he believes all the actions on both sides recently have been ‘civilised’ until an Israeli soldier was captured on the battlefield? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/30 "2014-08-01T19:20:09Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > IIRC most countries deny war crimes, while insisting that what they are doing is justified. How is Hamas here different from Israel? They actually commit war crimes while Israel doesn’t? Israel rarely fires unguided rockets into Palestine with the intent of A) killing civilians and B) ensuring a retaliatory strike back which will kill their own civilians C) Israel and Hamas are spelled differently and have different colors on their flags? D) woodchucks make great house pets and are the accessory of choice this year…? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/31 "2014-08-01T19:23:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > They actually commit war crimes while Israel doesn’t? Israel rarely fires unguided rockets into Palestine with the intent of A) killing civilians and B) ensuring a retaliatory strike back which will kill their own civilians C) Israel and Hamas are spelled differently and have different colors on their flags? D) woodchucks make great house pets and are the accessory of choice this year…? That may be your view. Your view may be somewhat biased. I am not taking sides, merely pointing out that both sides have acted inhumanly and disproportionately. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/32 "2014-08-01T19:26:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > By no means. Any group who deliberately captures enemy soldiers and basically holds them for ransom or to extort concessions could be put in a similar category. They are allowed to hold them until the end of the conflict. If Israel is so determined to have no POWs that it pays off the opponents, that is their choice. Of course, Israel also engages in this behaviour by mass arrests and detentions. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/33 "2014-08-01T19:28:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > IIRC most countries deny war crimes, while insisting that what they are doing is justified. How is Hamas here different from Israel? Hamas does not ‘deny war crimes’ - in fact, it openly advocates for genocide. Genocide against “the Jews” is part of its very charter! [Proof available on request.] That, at the least, makes them rather different from most other governments. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/34 "2014-08-01T19:29:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That may be your view. Your view may be somewhat biased. I am not taking sides, merely pointing out that both sides have acted inhumanly and disproportionately. ‘Even-handedness’ in the face of uneven facts is not a virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/35 "2014-08-01T19:31:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Mis-spelling ‘levelling’ might be a close second. Your English is as biased as you politics. The rest of the Anglophone world retains doubled letters in compound words. > **[Levelling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelling)** > > Levelling or leveling (American English; see spelling differences) is a branch of surveying, the object of which is to establish or verify or measure the height of specified points relative to a datum. It is widely used in geodesy and cartography to measure vertical position with respect to a vertical datum, and in construction to measure height differences of construction artifacts. > Optical levelling, also known as spirit levelling and differential levelling, employs an optical level, which con... ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/36 "2014-08-01T19:34:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Hamas does not ‘deny war crimes’ - in fact, it openly advocates for genocide. Genocide against “the Jews” is part of its very charter! [Proof available on request.] > > That, at the least, makes them rather different from most other governments. So a piece of paper justifies what is happening in Gaza. There is no means by which Hamas can possibly commit genocide. They can barely wage war. Making stupid statements does not justify massively disproportionate response. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/37 "2014-08-01T19:35:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > ‘Even-handedness’ in the face of uneven facts is not a virtue. Nor is bias in the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/38 "2014-08-01T19:36:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So a piece of paper justifies what is happening in Gaza. There is no means by which Hamas can possibly commit genocide. They can barely wage war. Making stupid statements does not justify massively disproportionate response. Huh? No-one is claiming the Hamas Charter justifies anything. It simply rebuts your point that the two sides are alike in denying war crimes. Hamas doesn’t deny them - it celebrates them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/39 "2014-08-01T19:36:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Is it only Palestinians that cannot call captured soldiers on the battlefield ‘prisoners’ but must instead be kidnappers? You are the OP, and it was your cite that called it a kidnapping. You referred to it as taking a “hostage”, not a prisoner. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/40 "2014-08-01T19:37:34Z")
Interesting coverage of a recent opinion poll in the USA suggesting that support for Israel is much lower in the under thirties. In time this could have a major effect on the level of practical and political support given to Israel by the USA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=3)