# Asymmetric Warfare and Proportionality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/41 "2014-08-01T19:38:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nor is bias in the same situation. It is not “bias” to form a judgment that the two sides are not the same, when the facts indicate that they are not! Really. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/42 "2014-08-01T19:41:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are the OP, and it was your cite that called it a kidnapping. You referred to it as taking a “hostage”, not a prisoner. > > Regards, > Shodan I chose the words to stop the debate being initially about the context, wishing to point out that such a position is a game changer for Hamas. If I had called him a POW initially, the Israeli apologists would have been out earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/43 "2014-08-01T19:42:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is not “bias” to form a judgment that the two sides are not the same, when the facts indicate that they are not! > > Really. Every conflict has at least two narratives. Neither side has a monopoly of truth or morality. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/44 "2014-08-01T19:48:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Every conflict has at least two narratives. Neither side has a monopoly of truth or morality. That attitude certainly makes moral judgments easier - no need for pesky things like facts to make them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/45 "2014-08-01T19:49:25Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I chose the words to stop the debate being initially about the context, wishing to point out that such a position is a game changer for Hamas. You didn’t choose the word “kidnapping”; your cite did. Now you are complaining about how your own cite characterized Hamas’ action. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/46 "2014-08-01T20:02:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You didn’t choose the word “kidnapping”; your cite did. Now you are complaining about how your own cite characterized Hamas’ action. > > Regards, > Shodan I chose the word “hostage” and chose a quote using the word “kidnapped”. Any more hairs to split? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/47 "2014-08-01T20:04:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That attitude certainly makes moral judgments easier - no need for pesky things like facts to make them. So everything is simple and has only one narrative in your world? I refer you to the Irish/British problem where we work with two different narratives recognising that there are multiple viewpoints. Most peacemaking involves this from marriage guidance to nuclear disarmament. Those that insist on theirs being the only valid narrative are part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/48 "2014-08-01T20:07:43Z")
The BBC to its credit is using the word “captured” unlike Obama and the British foreign secretary who are using the pejorative “kidnapped”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/49 "2014-08-01T20:14:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I chose the word “hostage” and chose a quote using the word “kidnapped”. > > Any more hairs to split? I don’t know - do you have any more complaints to make about what you’ve posted? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/50 "2014-08-01T20:15:39Z")
In 2014, prior to the Israeli invasion of Gaza, two Israeli soldiers were killed by IDF ‘friendly fire’. Prior to the Israeli invasion of Gaza, Hamas rockets had caused two deaths - a Thai guest worker and a Palestinian citizen of Israel… Perhaps that’s parity. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/51 "2014-08-01T20:36:32Z")
What I actually find depressing is that Hamas captured the soldier while a cease fire was supposed to be in place. This is apparantly the third cease fire they’ve broken and I suspect we may not see any others. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/52 "2014-08-01T20:39:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m generally a Palestinian sympathizer, but I wouldn’t weep if every single member of Hamas (and of ISIS, and of the Taliban, and of Hezbollah) were rounded up and shot just for being a member. Why not Fatah as well? Don’t you consider members of the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ brigades blowing themselves up aboard a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren turning them into kosher hamburger to be as horrible as anything Meshal has been responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/53 "2014-08-01T20:44:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Interesting coverage of a recent opinion poll in the USA suggesting that support for Israel is much lower in the under thirties. In time this could have a major effect on the level of practical and political support given to Israel by the USA. Could you link to this poll? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/54 "2014-08-01T20:46:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Why? Might he come over and demolish my house as a punishment and kill my family. Are they all that dangerous? That’s enough. Warning issued. I’m also considering combining all the Gaza threads. Pjen, start no more of them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Sheikh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Sheikh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Sheikh)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/55 "2014-08-01T20:47:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Interesting coverage of a recent opinion poll in the USA suggesting that support for Israel is much lower in the under thirties. In time this could have a major effect on the level of practical and political support given to Israel by the USA. I wonder what support/opposition of a (foreign country) is based on - given that the US is a religion-neutral country! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/56 "2014-08-01T20:51:32Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So everything is simple and has only one narrative in your world? > > I refer you to the Irish/British problem where we work with two different narratives recognising that there are multiple viewpoints. Most peacemaking involves this from marriage guidance to nuclear disarmament. > > Those that insist on theirs being the only valid narrative are part of the problem. In this particular case, you claimed a false equivalence - that Hamas and Israel alike “deny war crimes, while insisting that what they are doing is justified”. I merely point out that Hamas does not deny war crimes - it celebrates the opportunity of committing them, including genocide. That’s an official part of their “narrative” . No amount of ‘taking into account the other guy’s narrative’ makes the slightest difference to this situation - because it is their “narrative” that is the problem. If you don’t believe it, read for yourself. [http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) It is amazing and instructive to me, to see how you are wriggling on that hook. That’s some impressive cognitive dissonance at work. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/57 "2014-08-01T23:22:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What I actually find depressing is that Hamas captured the soldier while a cease fire was supposed to be in place. This is apparantly the third cease fire they’ve broken and I suspect we may not see any others. This is the key issue, to me. Was there actually a cease fire agreed to by Hamas? If so, then his is a “kidnapping”. If not, then they have a POW, and he needs to be treated accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/58 "2014-08-01T23:33:29Z")
The capture occured when the Israelis routed some Hamas troops from a tunnel. Hamas won the encounter and captured one Israeli. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/59 "2014-08-01T23:58:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is the key issue, to me. Was there actually a cease fire agreed to by Hamas? If so, then his is a “kidnapping”. If not, then they have a POW, and he needs to be treated accordingly. Here’s the report from CNN. Hamas claims they attacked the soldiers before the ceasefire was in place. Since they already broke earlier ceasefires I take their claims with a huge grain of salt. [http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?c=homepage-t](http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?c=homepage-t) ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/60 "2014-08-02T01:12:04Z")
I have an idea that can resolve this entire mess. Suppose that Hamas agrees that for five years, they will not conduct nor tolerate any terrorist actions against Israel. During that time, with verification, Israel will open Gaza to development. Hamas can then concentrate on building a gee whiz first world country, take care of their people and live without anyone having to die. Instead, it is easier to conduct terrorist operations against Israel and then whine when Israel closes borders used to smuggle weapons and strikes back against their attackers. Let’s remember, no Israelis have gone into Gaza to blow themselves and a bus full of innocents up. Israel acts in self defense (granted, sometimes hard handedly) while Hamas (and for that matter, the Muslim Brotherhood, Isis and Hezbollah) acts offensively. If Hamas ever learned the lessons provided by Gandhi, perhaps they might even deserve their own country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=4)