# Asymmetric Warfare and Proportionality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/61 "2014-08-02T01:30:37Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > . . . Suppose that Hamas agrees that for five years, they will not conduct nor tolerate any terrorist actions against Israel. During that time, with verification, Israel will open Gaza to development. Hamas can then concentrate on building a gee whiz first world country, take care of their people and live without anyone having to die. . . . Works for me. Let’s do it! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/62 "2014-08-02T04:15:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s a like a little guy picking a fight with a giant. Does the giant have to hit the little guy as hard as he can? No. But he doesn’t NOT have to hit him as hard as he can either. > > Basically Hamas does whatever it can to provoke Israel. Israel responds by saying “if you hit us, we’ll hit you ten times as hard because we can and fuck you.” Then both sides send their talking heads on the news to complain about what jerks the other side are. > > It’s not really an issue of “gullible assholes”. It’s more ideology based. Pro Palestinians will support Hamas. Pro Israels will support Israel. Except they are not talking about hitting hamas, they are talking about levelling Gaza. A lot of people in gaza are presumably not members of the military branch of hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/63 "2014-08-02T04:17:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Once again, in just war theory “proportionality” does NOT mean that each side must get a fair shake in war! > > I have no idea where this notion has come from, but it is notable for its stupidity. It is akin to saying that it is “unfair” for cops to use overwhelming numbers, guns and dogs when confronted with a murderer - they must take him on mano-a-mano, armed just like the murderer. WTF? > > In point of fact, “proportionality” means that WHEN PURSUING A LEGITIMATE MILITARY OBJECTIVE, any side must use means which a “proportional” to that objective (that is, the risks to civilians must be minimized)- not to the efforts made by the other side against it! > > Edit: in case it is unclear, “leveling Gaza” in response to a kidnapping is NOT a proportionate response. And levelling a city of millions seems more like group punishment than trying to obtain a military objective. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/64 "2014-08-02T04:19:05Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > No. Disproportionate would be a 30 day siege that results in 40,000 dead but Hamas eliminated. This is tit for tat, except that one side is actually competent. I would take that. If you really think that killing 40,000 people will make the violence in a dispute that seems to be held together by vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/65 "2014-08-02T04:21:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m generally a Palestinian sympathizer, but I wouldn’t weep if every single member of Hamas (and of ISIS, and of the Taliban, and of Hezbollah) were rounded up and shot just for being a member. I assume you mean the military branch of hamas, right? IIRC, a lot of hamas is infrastructure and humanitarian stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/66 "2014-08-02T04:22:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said. > > Regards, > Shodan You know we are in great debates, right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/67 "2014-08-02T04:23:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suggest you don’t say those words in the same room as an Israeli. So I probably shouldn’t wonder aloud how many hostages it would take to get a right of return and restitution in the same room as an Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/68 "2014-08-02T04:24:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I would take that. If you really think that killing 40,000 people will make the violence in a dispute that seems to be held together by vengeance. It routed the Muslim brotherhood from Syria for several decades. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/69 "2014-08-02T04:28:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > By no means. Any group who deliberately captures enemy soldiers and basically holds them for ransom or to extort concessions could be put in a similar category. Didn’t they used to do that all the time? You would ransom a knight or a lord or some such. In fact they used to advertise their ransom value to ensure that people would try to capture them rather than kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/70 "2014-08-02T04:38:16Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > It routed the Muslim brotherhood from Syria for several decades. At this point I’m willing to go along with almost anything. How many of those 40,000 are civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/71 "2014-08-02T04:41:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > At this point I’m willing to go along with almost anything. How many of those 40,000 are civilians? Virtually all. You have heard of the Hama massacre haven’t you? Rifaat Assad bragged about it and repeatedly complained that the Western media underreported the number of people he killed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/72 "2014-08-03T02:19:13Z")
[Soldier was killed in battle, not taken hostage by Hamas](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28627888) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/73 "2014-08-03T02:51:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I assume you mean the military branch of hamas, right? IIRC, a lot of hamas is infrastructure and humanitarian stuff. Most Israelis would probably just ask if you supported “the right of return” for Greeks, Turks, Muslim and Hindu South Asians, as well as ethnic Germans from the Sudetanland. They’d also say that anyone who supports a “right of return” is not interested in peaceful coexistence by an independent Palestinian State and an independent Jewish It would be hard to argue with them without drastically ignoring the history of the region. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/74 "2014-08-03T02:54:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Soldier was killed in battle, not taken hostage by Hamas](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28627888) While any deaths in this conflict are terrible, it’s probably better overall that he was killed rather than captured, simply because the latter would probably lead to more death and destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/75 "2014-08-03T16:10:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There are those of us who believe that both sides are acting recklessly and disproportionately.What Israel is doing is little different to what was done by the government in Syria- the shelling and air-strikes on residential areas. > > It seems that war crimes have been committed on both sides; whether the perpetrators will be brought to justice is a moot point. I think Israel sometimes acts disproportionately, but I don’t think that’s been typical during this most recent conflict. But I do think the core thing to pull away from this conflict is it’s a strange one because neither side even really thinks they can “win” militarily but they’re fighting anyway. It’s the height of stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/76 "2014-08-03T16:12:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The UN is a political body, that is swift to condemn Israel with or without evidence. > > Relying on “talk” about war crimes to make a determination strikes me as abandoning critical thinking. Such “talk” is not evidence. **Pjen** is I believe a supporter of abolition of national governments under the subjugation of a “world” government. I’m not sure why anyone thinks that a body dominated by dictatorships that hate Israel is a valid source of information about Israel’s conflicts with Palestine. It’s also odd we’re adopting the position that if the U.N. just uses the word “war crime” it means Israel must in fact be guilty of war crimes. Nothing under the laws of war to which Israel has agreed (through treaties) criminalizes collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/77 "2014-08-03T16:19:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Soldier was killed in battle, not taken hostage by Hamas](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28627888) I suspected this all along, the account that got out depicted a battle around one of the tunnels, a suicide bombing, and a tunnel collapse. When the smoke cleared they had a guy MIA and it appeared they jumped to the conclusion of “captured.” My first thought when I heard that was “he got killed in the explosion or tunnel collapse”, it didn’t sound likely that Hamas would have even been able to complete a capture in those circumstances. I am guessing they found his body in the collapsed tunnel? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/78 "2014-08-03T16:27:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > **Pjen** is I believe a supporter of abolition of national governments under the subjugation of a “world” government. I’m not sure why anyone thinks that a body dominated by dictatorships that hate Israel is a valid source of information about Israel’s conflicts with Palestine. It’s also odd we’re adopting the position that if the U.N. just uses the word “war crime” it means Israel must in fact be guilty of war crimes. > > Nothing under the laws of war to which Israel has agreed (through treaties) criminalizes collateral damage. How about you cast your aspersions elsewhere. Cite please for where I have ever supported abolition of national governments. Please do not erect imaginary windmills around me so you can tilt at them. Israel is pretty damn close to the line of war crimes as are Hamas. Of course neither will be brought to book as Hamas is not a state and Israel is protected by the US Power and Veto. The part of the UN doing the condemning is not controlled by the General Assembly, but by the Secretary General as part of the Security Council. Such statements are usually neutral and demand respect. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/79 "2014-08-03T16:29:19Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I really think that Israel’s best response is not shelling but in specifically targeting the leadership of Hamas. And when the leadership of Hamas hides underneath a hospital… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/80 "2014-08-03T16:31:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Source? Cite? [http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=5)