# Asymmetric Warfare and Proportionality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/81 "2014-08-03T16:52:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180730/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed) Cite from a neutral media please. “Tablet Jewish Magazine - A New Read on Jewish Life‎” New York Times, LA Times Chicago Tribune, Times of London. I am not inclined to accept cites from either Jewish or Islamic news sources. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/82 "2014-08-03T16:59:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Cite from a neutral media please. > > “Tablet Jewish Magazine - A New Read on Jewish Life‎” > > New York Times, LA Times Chicago Tribune, Times of London. > > I am not inclined to accept cites from either Jewish or Islamic news sources. Will Washington Post do? [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html) At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices. Except, of course, that sentence was an “oops”. The Tablet Mag article documents how the journalists are intimidated into not writing about this. As in: "Nick Casey of the Wall Street Journal, for example, tweeted that “You have to wonder w the shelling how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” Casey then quickly deleted his tweet, which didn’t save him from being put on a list of journalists who “lie/fabricate info for Israel” and “must be sued” – a threat which is surely the least of Casey’s fears. Last week, French-Palestinian journalist Radjaa Abu Dagg was summoned to Shifa by Hamas and interrogated. He wrote about the experience of “attempted intimidation” for Liberation—and then quickly had the paper take down the article. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/83 "2014-08-03T17:09:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Cite from a neutral media please. > > “Tablet Jewish Magazine - A New Read on Jewish Life‎” > > New York Times, LA Times Chicago Tribune, Times of London. > > I am not inclined to accept cites from either Jewish or Islamic news sources. Since you mention “Jewish or Islamic news sources” as ones you would assume are biased and unreliable, would you say the same about “Arab or Turkish news sources” or would you discount them as well. Also, the Tablet article you’re dismissing cites both PBS and the Washington Post. Do those count as “neutral media”? Also, I’ve never heard the Tablet accused of serious distorting the news or engaging in fraud. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/84 "2014-08-03T17:11:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > How about you cast your aspersions elsewhere. Cite please for where I have ever supported abolition of national governments. Please do not erect imaginary windmills around me so you can tilt at them. I never said you supported the abolition of national governments. I said I believed you did, if you don’t–cool. > [@](#): > > Israel is pretty damn close to the line of war crimes as are Hamas. Of course neither will be brought to book as Hamas is not a state and Israel is protected by the US Power and Veto. Cite? Actual evidence that is, not just an appeal to authority. > [@](#): > > The part of the UN doing the condemning is not controlled by the General Assembly, but by the Secretary General as part of the Security Council. Such statements are usually neutral and demand respect. Why? How is the Secretary General especially equipped to have facts from a war zone. And “11,000 UN employees on the ground in Gaza” doesn’t cut it, either. We wouldn’t accept the American President’s “word” for jack shit (at least not anyone with a discerning mind), if we’re asking him for proof of his positive claims it’s no different for the SG. And “oh we have people there who told me” isn’t proof, that’s just an assertion backed by evidence not provided. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/85 "2014-08-03T17:28:51Z")
What is Israel really supposed to do? Just sit there and accept rocket attacks because, “You guys are right, we’re the bad guys and we deserve it”? Are they supposed to agree with Hamas and the Palestinians and declare, “Yes, we stole your land to build our country. We’re sorry. Tell you what, we’re all moving to Florida, you can have it all back now”? While those things might put an end to the conflict, neither is going to happen. And it seems unlikely that Hamas is going to drop their call for genocide against Jews- that’s a fairly common attitude around the Middle East. To say their charter is ‘just a piece of paper’ is absurd- people are taught from childhood to hate Jews in that part of the world, it is central to the culture in some places. It is what people really, truly, sincerely believe. So, we’re stuck with a meat grinder. I don’t advocate genocide, but there is some merit to the statement, “when the enemy is committed to your total destruction, nothing can be considered disproportionate.” I think this is going to continue as long as both sides exist. I suspect if France got fed up and carpet-nuked the whole area, the cockroaches that remained would yet fight each other. The whole place is just doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/86 "2014-08-04T03:06:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Virtually all. > > You have heard of the Hama massacre haven’t you? > > Rifaat Assad bragged about it and repeatedly complained that the Western media underreported the number of people he killed. Then I don’t know if I’d go straight to the murder of 40,000 innocent civilians to achieve peace, I might want to try a few other things first. But if the situation had gone on for 60+years and radicalized the entire middle east and resulted in generations of millions of refugees. Then I might see things differently. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/87 "2014-08-04T03:08:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Most Israelis would probably just ask if you supported “the right of return” for Greeks, Turks, Muslim and Hindu South Asians, as well as ethnic Germans from the Sudetanland. Who gives a shit. We’re not talking about those places. > [@](#): > > They’d also say that anyone who supports a “right of return” is not interested in peaceful coexistence by an independent Palestinian State and an independent Jewish > > It would be hard to argue with them without drastically ignoring the history of the region. Or they might be seeing everything from a zionist bias. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/88 "2014-08-04T04:14:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Who gives a shit. We’re not talking about those places. You’re the one who stupidly brought up the idea that people who’ve been ethnically cleansed have a “right of return”. Why do you favor a “right of return” for the Palestinians who never developed a national consciousness until the 1950s, but nobody else? > [@](#): > > Or they might be seeing everything from a zionist bias. Since you know so little about the term “Zionist” that you think “Zionism” didn’t exist prior to the early 20th Century, I’d recommend against making statements like that. Next time just say “Jewish” or “Israeli”. Is there a reason you’re hesitant to do so? I don’t recall you ever asking a poster if they were a “Zionist” but you’ve asked posters if they were “Jewish”. This isn’t BTW an attack, but questions about your change in terminology. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/89 "2014-08-04T04:33:06Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I have an idea that can resolve this entire mess. > > Suppose that Hamas agrees that for five years,\*\* they will not conduct nor tolerate any terrorist actions against Israel. \*\* During that time, with verification, Israel will open Gaza to development. Hamas can then concentrate on building a gee whiz first world country, take care of their people and live without anyone having to die. > > Instead, it is easier to conduct terrorist operations against Israel and then whine when Israel closes borders used to smuggle weapons and strikes back against their attackers. > > Let’s remember, no Israelis have gone into Gaza to blow themselves and a bus full of innocents up. Israel acts in self defense (granted, sometimes hard handedly) while Hamas (and for that matter, the Muslim Brotherhood, Isis and Hezbollah) acts offensively. > > If Hamas ever learned the lessons provided by Gandhi, perhaps they might even deserve their own country. But therein lies the huge problem - even the US, England and Australia can’t prevent their citizens from becoming terrorists - how do you expect Palestine to achieve such a goal? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/90 "2014-08-04T04:55:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Who gives a shit. We’re not talking about those places. . . . This makes it appear that you don’t give a shit about legal principles, but just rule on the basis of whom you happen to favor at the moment. Is “The Right of Return” a universal legal principle, or is it just a club you use to hit Israel with? Either it applies to all dispossessed people, or else you’re involved in special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/91 "2014-08-04T06:01:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Will Washington Post do? > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html) > > At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices. > > Except, of course, that sentence was an “oops”. The Tablet Mag article documents how the journalists are intimidated into not writing about this. As in: > > "Nick Casey of the Wall Street Journal, for example, tweeted that “You have to wonder w the shelling how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” Casey then quickly deleted his tweet, which didn’t save him from being put on a list of journalists who “lie/fabricate info for Israel” and “must be sued” – a threat which is surely the least of Casey’s fears. Last week, French-Palestinian journalist Radjaa Abu Dagg was summoned to Shifa by Hamas and interrogated. He wrote about the experience of “attempted intimidation” for Liberation—and then quickly had the paper take down the article. I really have no problem with individuals, Hamas leadership or not, sheltering in hospitals and schools. That is legitimate in a way that basing rocket launchers or ammunition is not. Given that Israel is targetting leaders it is a natural reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/92 "2014-08-04T06:21:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I really have no problem with individuals, Hamas leadership or not, sheltering in hospitals and schools. So, you don’t have a problem with the use of human shields? Why not? Are there any positions of Hamas that you disagree with. For example, this one: > [@](#): > > “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” If so, why? If one believes, as Hamas does, that Jews are the descendants of Muslims and pigs isn’t such a position perfectly reasonable. Similarly, how about his position regarding the Jews. > [@](#): > > With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there. After all, if it’s possible that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to America and British Jews are more loyal to Israel than the UK, isn’t it with the realm of possibility that such conspiracy theories are based on the truth? I’ll confess, I find both claims virulently anti-Semitic, but I also think only a complete moron or an anti-Semite would even entertain the thought that American Jews, British Jews, or French Jews would be more loyal to Israel than their native countries. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/93 "2014-08-04T07:26:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So, you don’t have a problem with the use of human shields? > > Why not? For the same reason that any persons in warfare may take shelter where they can. What is not acceptable is hiding weapons. Perhaps in the next war we fight we should insist that all our leaders be put in positions of danger rather than sheltering in large centers of population. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/94 "2014-08-04T07:27:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are there any positions of Hamas that you disagree with. > > For example, this one: I have noted before your fondness for Straw Men arguments and slippery slope arguments. Poor form! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/95 "2014-08-04T07:32:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ll confess, I find both claims virulently anti-Semitic, but I also think only a complete moron or an anti-Semite would even entertain the thought that American Jews, British Jews, or French Jews would be more loyal to Israel than their native countries. That is because of your narrow minded nationalism- my country right or wrong. I quite happily accept that in the seventies, people of West Indian descent, but born in the UK decided to represent their parent’s country in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. Every immigrant to the USA needs at some point to decide on their true allegiance (or not as the case may be.) Frank Zappa returned to his roots and became a politician. I know many English in the USA who maintain a facade of loyalty to the US because it is required, but will remain English to the death - citizens and non-citizens alike. Many people from the sub-continent retain strong ties of loyalty to their home country even into the third and fourth generation. Is any of that “anti-Semitic” or is your statement special pleading only! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/96 "2014-08-04T07:38:04Z")
Oh, and lest I forget, in the UK we accept a large proportion of the population of the North of Ireland is probably more loyal to the Republic than to the British State, but that they prefer to live where they were born and wait for a united Ireland. One of the benefits of an ancient and inclusive citizenship, rather than an enforced flag worshipping one, is the ability to understand that loyalties vary and change over time. I suspect the fact that we do not expect all immigrants to become copycat Brits in the manner in which public national loyalty is required in the USA makes one considerably more tolerant of diverse allegiances. One of the first ‘duh’ moments of arriving in the states as a teenager was the expectation that I would say the pledge of allegiance every morning at school. I never did and could not in all honesty do so, but other similarly recent immigrants fell straight into the brain-washing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/97 "2014-08-04T07:42:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > For the same reason that any persons in warfare may take shelter where they can. What is not acceptable is hiding weapons. Perhaps in the next war we fight we should insist that all our leaders be put in positions of danger rather than sheltering in large centers of population. Thank you for confirming that you don’t have any problems with the use of human shields. > [@](#): > > I have noted before your fondness for Straw Men arguments and slippery slope arguments. Poor form! Respectfully, I’m not sure you’re aware of what a “straw man”(not straw men) argument is. That said, thank you for making it clear you disagreed with such beliefs. > [@](#): > > Is any of that “anti-Semitic” or is your statement special pleading only! Yes, I thought I’m made it clear that I thought people who claimed that British/French/American Jews were more loyal to Israel than the countries they were born in were making anti-Semitic statements. So do the vast majority of right-thinking people. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. > [@](#): > > I quite happily accept that in the seventies, people of West Indian descent, but born in the UK decided to represent their parent’s country in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. Every immigrant to the USA needs at some point to decide on their true allegiance (or not as the case may be.) Frank Zappa returned to his roots and became a politician. I know many English in the USA who maintain a facade of loyalty to the US because it is required, but will remain English to the death - citizens and non-citizens alike. Respectfully, this paragraph has nothing to do with our discussion and strikes me as terrible analogies. Few British/American/French Jews are Israeli immigrants. I’d be extremely offended if any white person openly suggested I was more loyal to Iran than the US, but I was born in Iran so that might make a certain amount of sense, but how many American or British Jews have any close family members living within Israel. Now, is your opinion that being a Jew in the UK or the US tantamount to being an immigrant from India? If so, please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/98 "2014-08-04T07:46:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Oh, and lest I forget, in the UK we accept a large proportion of the population of the North of Ireland is probably more loyal to the Republic than to the British State, but that they prefer to live where they were born and wait for a united Ireland. > > One of the benefits of an ancient and inclusive citizenship, rather than an enforced flag worshipping one, is the ability to understand that loyalties vary and change over time. I suspect the fact that we do not expect all immigrants to become copycat Brits in the manner in which public national loyalty is required in the USA makes one considerably more tolerant of diverse allegiances. > > One of the first ‘duh’ moments of arriving in the states as a teenager was the expectation that I would say the pledge of allegiance every morning at school. I never did and could not in all honesty do so, but other similarly recent immigrants fell straight into the brain-washing. Since, by your own admission, you were not forced to “worship” the flag, your comment about “enforced flag worshipping” makes little sense and your comment about “brain-washing” is laughable. Beyond that, is there a reason why you’re trying to make nationalist insults since I’m not making any. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/99 "2014-08-04T07:52:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since, by your own admission, you were not forced to “worship” the flag, your comment about “enforced flag worshipping” makes little sense and your comment about “brain-washing” is laughable. > > Beyond that, is there a reason why you’re trying to make nationalist insults since I’m not making any. I was not ‘forced’ because of strength of character. I was bullied by the stupider staff though. You have missed all the salient points though. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/100 "2014-08-04T07:52:33Z")
Pjen. BTW, once more, you said earlier that your felt that “Jewish and Muslim news sources” should be discounted(or words to that affect) than does that also include “Turkish and Arabic news sources” or no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=6)