# Asymmetric Warfare and Proportionality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579 "2014-08-01T16:06:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/101 "2014-08-04T07:53:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, I thought I’m made it clear that I thought people who claimed that British/French/American Jews were more loyal to Israel than the countries they were born in were making anti-Semitic statements. > > So do the vast majority of right-thinking people. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. Go back and read what I said. No Jews were mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/102 "2014-08-04T07:55:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Pjen. > BTW, once more, you said earlier that your felt that “Jewish and Muslim news sources” should be discounted(or words to that affect) than does that also include “Turkish and Arabic news sources” or no? Yes. In fields where there is so much bias, you need to step outside the arena. I recently had the chance to watch the Airliner crash in the Ukraine on both Russian and US News Channels. Very instructive. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/103 "2014-08-04T07:56:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I was not ‘forced’ because of strength of character. I was bullied by the stupider staff though. Really, I was never once “bullied” by “the stupider staff” to say the pledge and never once did and that was despite not having the benefit of white skin and an anglo name. My condolences on your extreme bad luck. > [@](#): > > You have missed all the salient points though. Apologies. You mentioned nothing about the “bullying” in your initial post and I’m not clairvoyant. BTW, is this there a reason you’re being so aggressive in response, since I’ve been extremely polite with you? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/104 "2014-08-04T08:00:08Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Yes. In fields where there is so much bias, you need to step outside the arena. I recently had the chance to watch the Airliner crash in the Ukraine on both Russian and US News Channels. > > Very instructive. Then why do you feel that a magazine put out by American Jews should be dismissed out of hand? Do you feel the same about Al-Jazeera which is a source I’ve used several times? Do you feel that my own posts on the subject should be dismissed since I’m an Iranian American and a Muslim(though non-practicing)? How about posts by SDMB members who are Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/105 "2014-08-04T13:39:37Z")
Anyone seen what [the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset is advocating](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U9-IjPldVu3)? > [@](#): > > After the IDF completes the “softening” of the targets with its fire-power, the IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations. > > Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave. > > Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. He has given further thoughts to this on Facebook (as[reported in the Daily Mail)](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html) [Huff Post article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/25/israel-far-right-gaza-moshe-feiglin_n_5621667.html) > [@](#): > > But even if Feiglin’s invasion plan isn’t being followed, his views matter. He entered the Knesset in January 2013, after 16 years of trying and 10 years of attempting to oust Netanyahu as the leader of Likud. The fact that he was placed high up on the Likud electoral slate last year reflected his far-right faction’s growing power in the party – and came as a shock to more liberal Israelis, who had been wary of Feiglin and his supporters for years. Netanyahu offered him a deputy speaker position in the legislature. And the same day he published his plan for Gaza, he was named to the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Security Committee. This was just four days after he used his authority as a deputy speaker to remove Arab Knesset members from the floor of the legislature for criticizing the current military operation and calling IDF soldiers “murderers.” > > These are big steps forward for the man who told The New Yorker in 2004 that “you can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic.” > > As David Remnick noted in that New Yorker story, which looked at the rise of the Israeli far-right, Feiglin speaks often about building the Third Temple – to replace the second, destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. – on the Temple Mount, which is also holy to Muslims and currently home to the Al-Aqsa Mosque. He’s also confident that the Palestinians “are a nation without a history. … [T]he Palestinians’ self-definition isn’t for a Palestinian state but for war with the Jews.” > > In 2008, the British government banned Feiglin from entering the United Kingdom on the grounds that he was seeking to provoke ethnic violence. > [@](#): > > Of course, Hamas’ rhetoric about Israelis and the anti-Semitism that has bubbled up in the Muslim world and Europe over the last few weeks are equally vicious and derogatory. Such offensive language is even heard in Israel: Ibrahim Tzartzur, one of those members Feiglin threw out of the Knesset, called the deputy speaker “a fascist, a Nazi,” while security officers were hustling him out of the chamber, according to the captions in a video Feiglin posted. > > But the recent barrage of belligerent and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians remains striking. They come not in a lawmaker’s moment of weakness or in a message from some internationally condemned group of fringe activists, but in essays from elected leaders of a country that touts itself as a uniquely advanced First World state in the Middle East. > > On Thursday, Feiglin declared on his Facebook page, “Our soldiers are the only innocents in Gaza. Under no circumstances should they be killed because of false morality that prefers to protect enemy civilians. One hair on the head of an Israeli soldier is more precious than the entire Gazan populace, which elected the Hamas and supports and encourages anyone who murders Israelis.” This murderous fanaticism is coming from a member of the government. Haven’t seen him being disowned. IMHO the Palestinians need to cut out all their stupid rocket and tunnel shit, accept they’ve historically lost and take whatever crappy deal they can get before they find themselves permanently camping out in Sinai. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/106 "2014-08-04T17:45:19Z")
The deputy speaker of the current Knesset is a right wing extremist. The deputy speaker of the previous three Knessets was an Arab devoted to peace, and who still sits in the Knesset where he is active in promoting Israeli-Arab peace and promoting Arab feminism. In fact, about 10% of the present Knesset if composed of Arabs, and Arabs have sat in the Knesset since the outset in 1949. By comparison, Palestinian Legislative Council Deputy Speaker Ahmad Bahar has publicly called for the annihilation by all Muslims of all Jews and all Americans in a Jihad against Israel. When compared to other Hamas leaders, he does not stand out. Have a look at some of their statements: [http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html](http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html) In short, there are many serious grievances on both sides. One side has some extremists in its ruling party. The ruling party of the other side is composed of extremists set out to annihilate its foes. Should Israel suffer ongoing shelling of its population or the incursion of bombers? Of course not. Will Hamas agree and maintain a cease-fire? No. Can Hamas be placated as Fatah was in hopes of easing security restriction and building a long-term peace? No. That leaves Israel having to defend itself through use of force. In its use of force to defend itself, Israel has returned fire, giving warning where practicable, and has searched out and destroyed tunnels. As with much urban warfare, there have been collateral casualties, and had the collateral casualty rate been low, there would not have been much outcry about Israel’s defence being disproportionate. The question then is why are there so many collateral casualties despite the limited Israeli response? The answer is quite simple: Hamas uses its populace – the same populace that elected it over Fatah – as human shields. Hamas’s conduct is out of all proportion to the norms of idealized warfare (not that there really is any such thing). This leaves Israel with no choice, for it cannot leave its own populace to continue to suffer ongoing rocket attacks and tunnel based bomber incursions, so it continues to defend in as limited a way as possible to stop such attacks knowing that the Palestinian collateral casualty rate will be very high. Although Israel has no choice, Hamas does have a choice. It can give up its Jihad and negotiate a peace, which is what Fatah and Israel are successfully doing in the West Bank. Hamas’ disproportional Jihad ideology and disproportional human shield tactics have led to disproportional collateral casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/107 "2014-08-04T19:42:20Z")
I would strongly question the idea that Fatah and Israel are “successfully negotiating” a peace deal. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/108 "2014-08-04T20:02:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > One of the first ‘duh’ moments of arriving in the states as a teenager was the expectation that I would say the pledge of allegiance every morning at school. I never did and could not in all honesty do so, but other similarly recent immigrants fell straight into the brain-washing. Now this is something I agree with \*\*Pjen \*\*on. Requiring students to say the pledge of allegiance every day is disturbing and should stop. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/109 "2014-08-04T20:54:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re the one who **stupidly** brought up the idea that people who’ve been ethnically cleansed have a “right of return”. Can you quit it with the insulting characterizations? I try not to insult you but you seem to go out of your way to insultingly characterize things said by Israel critics. We don’t need the extra adjectives, they don’t add to the debate and only serve to increase the temperature. Where in the post you are responding to do I bring up a universal right of return to anyone that has been ethnically cleansed? I bring up the right of any people who have been treated the way the Palestinians have been treated to struggle against their oppressors. Show me another case like the Palestinians and I’m pretty sure that I will support their right to struggle against their oppressors. > [@](#): > > Why do you favor a “right of return” for the Palestinians who never developed a national consciousness until the 1950s, but nobody else? Show me another case like them and then show where I argue against their right to struggle against oppressors? > [@](#): > > Since you know so little about the term “Zionist” that you think “Zionism” didn’t exist prior to the early 20th Century, I’d recommend against making statements like that. So I will repeat. I give you cites and dictionary definitions for the word Zionism but you are just reassuring me that you know better. Are you sure you know what you are talking about? I mean for a self proclaimed expert in all things middle east, I would have thought you would be able to explain to me why your definitions of Zionism is different than the wiki or dictionary definition. If you could tell me why your definiton is more accurate, that would be helpful as well. > [@](#): > > Next time just say “Jewish” or “Israeli”. Unless you can give me a reason to do so, my answer is probably going to be “I’ll use whatever term I feel is appropriate at the time” > [@](#): > > Is there a reason you’re hesitant to do so? No. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall you ever asking a poster if they were a “Zionist” but you’ve asked posters if they were “Jewish”. Yeah so? Not all Jews are Zionists (and there are probably some Zionists that are not Jews). > [@](#): > > This isn’t BTW an attack, but questions about your change in terminology. I’ve used the term Zionist for a long time. Would you like me to dig back to posts from 5 or 6 years ago and give you an example? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/110 "2014-08-04T21:01:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This makes it appear that you don’t give a shit about legal principles, but just rule on the basis of whom you happen to favor at the moment. Is “The Right of Return” a universal legal principle, or is it just a club you use to hit Israel with? > > Either it applies to all dispossessed people, or else you’re involved in special pleading. I support anyone’s right to struggle seek justice for past injustices until they achieve some sort of resolution. If you could make the argument that those places are similar to the situation in palestine then what you say would make sense but it seems like you are finding ONE similarity and demanding that I treat all those situations the same. Show me the millions of Greeks, Turks, Muslim and Hindu South Asians, as well as ethnic Germans from the Sudetanland living as refugees in ghettoes and I will probably support their right to struggle as well ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/111 "2014-08-04T21:04:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, I’m not sure you’re aware of what a “straw man”(not straw men) argument is. Its usually when you put words in people’s mouths and you tend to do it a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/112 "2014-08-05T00:53:47Z")
I want both - ALL - of you to shut the hell up with the insulting comments. I don’t think I can untangle who started it but one more and I’ll finish it and warn you both, is that clear. I said, IS THAT CLEAR? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579/113 "2014-08-05T03:37:49Z")
By the way, here it is from the horse’s (Hamas’s) mouth: [http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/](http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/) IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare,” which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians. the manual explains that: [INDENT]The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery]. [/INDENT] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asymmetric-warfare-and-proportionality/694579.md?page=5)