# At its root, is homophobia sexism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475 "2008-10-31T18:18:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/1 "2008-10-31T18:18:33Z")
I saw a quote by openly gay Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson that intrigued me: “At its root, the hatred of gays is driven by a hatred and second-class status of women.” Upon hearing it, I immediately felt “Oh, that’s so true!” But on second thought, I’m not sure where my feeling, or his, specifically comes from. So, the debate. First, does this feel like a true statement to you? Second, what evidence is there for or against it? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/2 "2008-10-31T20:04:22Z")
Pretty much. It’s degrading, isn’t it, to have a man take on any ‘feminine’ characteristics or to take a woman’s role in sex. Of course, this only makes sense if you think there are immovable ‘feminine’ characteristics and that all gay men have them. Also, I imagine it applies to cross-dressing as well (and why it’s no big deal for modern women to dress as men and not vice-versa). Lesbianism is perhaps a bit more clear-cut. Or less. When it is actually assumed to be a real phenomenon, rather than a whim, it can be railed against because these women are daring to take themselves out of the equation when it comes to acting in a way that will attract men. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/3 "2008-10-31T20:47:04Z")
I think it’s too complicated to necessarily have a single root. Cultural contempt for things regarded as feminine is certainly part of it, but I think there is equally the fear of the outsider, the same thing that drives hatred of someone with a different skin color, religion, fashion sense, etc. It’s that old monkey tribalism, always finding some new way to split off “them” from “us”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/4 "2008-10-31T22:26:02Z")
Strangely enough there are some women who see homosexual men as the ultimate in misogyny because they reject women. Yeah, I said it was strange. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/5 "2008-10-31T22:42:55Z")
Nope. It’s just plain disgusting. You know what they do with their poop shoots? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/6 "2008-10-31T22:50:19Z")
In a way, you could also say it’s a form of self-hate, of men, by men, for instance. Men hate to be called “girls” or accused of acting like a woman. But when you insinuate a straight guy likes other guys, he’ll react (sometimes violently) to the idea he’d actually find a gross, disgusting guy attractive, not that he’s “acting like a woman.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/7 "2008-10-31T22:52:25Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > Nope. It’s just plain disgusting. You know what they do with their poop shoots? No I don’t. Please tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/8 "2008-10-31T23:02:30Z")
Yes, what do they shoot with them? Does it go bang or splat? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/9 "2008-10-31T23:03:15Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > In a way, you could also say it’s a form of self-hate, of men, by men, for instance. > > Men hate to be called “girls” or accused of acting like a woman. But when you insinuate a straight guy likes other guys, he’ll react (sometimes violently) to the idea he’d actually find a gross, disgusting guy attractive, not that he’s “acting like a woman.” I don’t see any meaningful distinction here. Women (by and large) are attracted to men. Women (by and large) get penetrated by men. Men don’t want to be accused of being feminine, and insinuating that a straight man is attracted to another man insinuates that the straight man wants to be penetrated–just like a woman. In a way, finding a gross, disgusting guy attractive is the absolute pinnacle of “acting like a woman.” You could not be more feminine if you tried. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/10 "2008-10-31T23:12:18Z")
To say that homophobia is sexism is kind of homophobic. When someone says homophobia is sexism aren’t they making the assumption that there is something more feminine about gay people? Unless they are talking about the homophobic people who believe all gays are feminine and hate them because of that. People hate gays because they are conditioned to dislike something different. Gays are very different, so they hate them more. Women are different too. Anything that people don’t understand at first glance they won’t take the time to understand. So they live in ignorance and fear that homosexuals will destroy the country. Meanwhile, Osama Bin Laden is still at large. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/11 "2008-10-31T23:22:10Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > Yes, what do they shoot with them? Does it go bang or splat? Mine sings opera. I can’t speak for everyone though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/12 "2008-10-31T23:27:44Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I don’t see any meaningful distinction here. Women (by and large) are attracted to men. Women (by and large) get penetrated by men. Men don’t want to be accused of being feminine, and insinuating that a straight man is attracted to another man insinuates that the straight man wants to be penetrated–just like a woman. In a way, finding a gross, disgusting guy attractive is the absolute pinnacle of “acting like a woman.” You could not be more feminine if you tried. In support of that, I suspect that you’d find very few homophobic men who would be open\* to the idea of being penetrated by their wife/girlfriend, largely for the same reason. \*Hee! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/13 "2008-10-31T23:31:25Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > To say that homophobia is sexism is kind of homophobic. > > When someone says homophobia is sexism aren’t they making the assumption that there is something more feminine about gay people? Unless they are talking about the homophobic people who believe all gays are feminine and hate them because of that. More of the latter than the former. If you listen to what homophobes actually _say_ about homosexuals, it’s clear _they_ think that gay men are necessarily feminine. Usually, the brand of homophobia most people grow up with or are exposed to makes it quite clear that the problem is, well, what gay men do with their “poop shoots.” And what do they do with it, for the most part? The shove a cock up it. Just like what you would do with a woman. It’s not terribly surprising, considering how women have been treated in society for thousands of years, and the role women still play in many parts of the world. Women were second-class citizens. Women were not equal to men. Women were chattle to be used, to be impregnated, and to be dominated. (and in many places in the world, you can change the past tense to present tense). There are still women alive in this country who can remember a time before they were allowed to vote. And sexism is still a part of our culture. Though a greatly reduced part, and hopefully it will continue to be diminished. So why would a man choose to be like a woman? The question is pretty horrifying to some people. It’s even more horrifying if gay men _didn’t_ choose. That means, it’s within every single man to somehow _be like a woman_. For a lot of men, that’s simply unacceptable. Even if it’s entirely unconscious–and I personally believe it is. It’s not their fault they’ve internalized gender roles and rules about sexuality from their parents, religion, and the dominant culture. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/14 "2008-11-01T00:17:14Z")
Depends on what you mean by “sexism”, I think. I’d say that _some_ homophobia reflects the sexist idea that women are inferior to men and that men who behave in an effeminate manner, or women who refuse to “submit” to men sexually, are loathsome perverts. I don’t think this can explain all homophobia, though. Sexism could also be defined as a belief in rigid gender roles, and that there is something wrong with people who do not adhere to these roles. I don’t mean simply observing that men and women in general sometimes behave in different ways, but believing that a woman _should not_ or by virtue of being female _can not_ work as a mechanic, manage her own finances, vote, etc. Or believing that a “real man” wouldn’t be willing to change his baby’s diapers. A person could possibly believe in rigid gender roles without believing that the feminine role was less important than the masculine one. But it’s still sexist to believe that people of one sex should not do certain things that are perfectly acceptable for people of the other sex. For instance, it’s sexist to believe that promiscuous men are admirable studs while promiscuous women are the worst kind of trash. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that it’s also sexist to believe that it’s fine for a man to have sex with women, but not for a woman to have sex with women. Homophobia is a form of believing that all men and only men should behave in one way, while all women and only women should behave in another. If that’s not sexist, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/15 "2008-11-01T01:27:36Z")
I think homophobia (towards gay men) is attributable to three main things: [ol] [li]The “ick” factor.[/li][li]“God says it’s bad.”[/li][li]The perceived assault on masculinity.[/li][/ol] But I don’t think that an affront to masculinity necessitates a hatred of femininity. Indeed, I wouldn’t doubt that homophobes love and treasure women and femininity. So put me down for “disagree.” ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/16 "2008-11-01T02:25:19Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > Yes, what do they shoot with them? Does it go bang or splat? That only happens if you’re cleaning your gnu with your poop shoot exposed. And that’s a WHOLE 'nother story! ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/17 "2008-11-01T14:54:46Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > Indeed, I wouldn’t doubt that homophobes love and treasure women and femininity. I’m sure that’s true of some people, but if you’re speaking of homophobes in general then I doubt that very much indeed. Many (although not all) homophobic men are also misogynists who see women as little more than sex objects. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/18 "2008-11-01T15:03:57Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > Nope. It’s just plain disgusting. You know what they do with their poop shoots? Is it something that no hetrosexual couple in the history of sexual activity has ever done? Please tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/19 "2008-11-01T15:37:42Z")
I read that statement as… _“At its root, the hatred of gays is driven by a hatred…of women.”_ If what I’ve done above is fair, then I believe it’s false. There are probably as many reasons for hate as there are people involved in expressing that hate. More likely is a fear of the unknown or that which is different and an unwillingness to accept social diversity. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475/20 "2008-11-01T17:27:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m sure that’s true of some people, but if you’re speaking of homophobes in general then I doubt that very much indeed. Many (although not all) homophobic men are also misogynists who see women as little more than sex objects. Well I can tell you 100% that this `phobe loves and cherishes women. I always have. Even as a child when the other boys were “ewww girls” I knew that I would one day marry one of them and they were always special to me. The whole idea behind this thread is completely fallacious. How can you connect disgust with one group with hatred of a completely different group? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-its-root-is-homophobia-sexism/470475.md?page=2)