# At last, someone is thinking of the children... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 22, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631 "2004-03-22T00:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/21 "2004-03-22T21:32:21Z")
This is ridiculous. _sigh_ How is a lawfully married man missing his wife somehow worse than the song I remember from _Hunchback of Notre Dame_, the one about hellfire and damnation that I recall thinking was a thinly veiled reference to the sin of masturbation? “See, honey, the priest-man is thinking _bad_ things about Esmerelda, because she is a gypsy and therefore sinful and trying to lead him into temptation. You go right ahead and watch it … _gasp_ But _burning_ for his wife! It’s impossible to think one of our founding fathers had a loving marriage! How ribald!” I just added that last part because I really like the word “ribald.” ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/22 "2004-03-22T21:58:11Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Adams finally wakes up as to WHY Franklin has them leave and sputters “you don’t mean they’re going to…to…in the middle of the _afternoon?_” > > “Don’t worry John” replies Franklin “the history books will clean it up.” Ha ha haaa! I love that movie. “Richard Henry Lee of Virginia!” I was reading some of Ben Franklin’s writing for my boring American Lit class and randomly yelling “Frank-LIN!” in my best John Adams voice. And the DVD has _Cool, Cool Conservative Men_, which I constantly hum when I read some threads in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/23 "2004-03-22T22:11:11Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Considering what we know now about Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, the fact that he burned for his wife is laudatory. And laughable. I thought Jefferson didn’t take up with Sally until after he was a widower. Anybody got the Straight Dope on the timeline? Or at elast a date when he and Sally’s first child was born? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/24 "2004-03-22T22:20:50Z")
Found it. Martha Jefferson died in 1782. Sally’s first child is born in January of 1790. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/25 "2004-03-22T22:30:20Z")
The same sort of thing happened to myself and my 5th grade class @ Harbor Elementary School in 1977. Two classes from the 5th grade and two from the 6th went on a field trip via bus about a mile or so down the road to the Junior High School to see the film 1776. It was being screened in their auditorium and we who were visiting from the local elementary school had to sit up front. About a half hour thru the film, the teachers summoned their 5th and 6th graders to get up and leave. We all did as instructed, and got the following reason from our teacher upon returning to our classrooms. (Paraphrasing here, it was 27 years ago): > [@A very animated & impassioned 5th grade teacher by the name of Mrs. Kurtz](#): > > After consulting with the 3 other teachers that also accompanied their classes to see the film 1776, we decided it was best it was best to return you all to class and discuss the true history of what occurred in Philadelphia in July 1776. > > I for one, refused to allow my students to witness such a mockery of American history. Our founding fathers; all very intelligent & thoughtful men, were portrayed as buffoons and idiots. When I meet the administrator whose bright idea it was to take you all to see a musical that used Independence Hall as a backdrop, I’m going to give them a piece of my mind. > > Let’s open our Social Studies textbooks to page so-an-so and discuss the events as they truly occurred… I don’t know exactly why I remember that day so clearly. It wasn’t all that Earth-shattering an event. But as I look back on it now, (and having seen the entire film a couple of times since), I **appreciate** the fact our teacher had us leave the JHS auditorium and go back to our classes. From the small part of the film we saw that day, I do recall coming away with the notion that Ben Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, et al. were a bunch of morons. I was 11 years old and even though I knew the difference between reality and fiction, I didn’t have enough knowledge of the true history to draw and other conclusions about our founding fathers. I realize the OP’s cite had to do with middle school students (grades 6 thru 8), whereas my experience had to do with 9 to 11 year olds. I also concede the point our teacher’s stated reason for not letting us watch the film had nothing to do with “\* sexual innuendo and language\*”. But that being said, I’m still not certain a musical that uses colonial Philadelphia as its backdrop is really all that valuable as a tool for teaching history. Even if my class had been taught the textbook version of that period prior to seeing the film, I don’t see much value in the film itself. The only metaphor that comes to mind would be taking students to see Mel Brooks’ “The Producers” or the musical “The Sound of Music” as an accompaniment to teaching European History under the Nazis. Disclaimer: It’s either that, or it’s just my internal bias against musicals: they are on a whole a genre I so very much despise it may be having an affect on my opinion-making processes ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/26 "2004-03-23T00:45:18Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > I **appreciate** the fact our teacher had us leave the JHS auditorium and go back to our classes. From the small part of the film we saw that day, I do recall coming away with the notion that Ben Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, et al. were a bunch of morons. Yea, but Franklin really was that randy and I believe John Adams was known for basically being incredibly obnoxious. Pretending the Founders were Giants Who Walked The Earth does nothing to enhance their reputation and is a disservice to them. The fact that they were, basically, just men of their times makes their story that much more powerful. If not for quite a few lucky breaks, they’d just be a bunch of rebellious traitors in a British history book. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/27 "2004-03-23T03:06:45Z")
I lived in Fairfax Virginia for the first sixteen years of my life. It is the eastern love handle of the Bible Belt. I remember at least one attempt to ban Charlotte’s Web from public schools. A local Christian group held that the idea of talking, thinking animals was blasphemous. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/28 "2004-03-23T06:46:51Z")
I’m just getting a big kick out of the fact that, of all the sexual innuendo in the movie, that’s the example they used. The movie mentions whoring and drinking, fondling slaves, Ben Franklin keeping a tryst, and an epidemic of “the French disease”, and they get upset about a man missing his wife? Or maybe that’s the only part she felt she could mention. The teachers at my kids’ conservative parochial school have borrowed our copy the last few years to show the junior high classes. It doesn’t seem to have horrified anybody yet. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/29 "2004-03-23T09:10:58Z")
Let’s hope that these kids never get a chance to read _actual_ letters that John Adams wrote to his wife during their courtship. From _The Spirit of America_ edited and with commentary by William J. Bennet, pages 106-7 > [@](#): > > John Adams to Abigail Smith > > Dear Madam > Accidents are often more Friendly to us, than our own Prudence. – I intended to have been at Weymouth Yesterday, but a storm prevented. – Cruel, Yet perhaps blessed storm! – Cruel for detaining me from so much friendly, social Company, and perhaps blessed to you, or me or both, for keeping me at _my Distance_. For every experimental Phylosopher knows, that the steel and the Magnet or the Glass and feather will not fly together with more Celerity, than somebody And somebody, when brought within the striking Distance – and, Itches, Aches, Agues and Repentance might be the Consequences of a Contact in present Cirucumstances. Even the Divines prounounce casuistically, I hear, “unfit to be touched these three Weeks.” > > I mount this moment for that noisy, dirty Town of Boston, where Parade, Pomp, Nonsense, Frippery, Folly, Foppery, Luxury, Polliticks, and the soul-Confounding Wrangles of the Law will give me the Higher Relish for Spirit, Taste and Sense, at Weymouth, next Sunday. Do you think it fair to say that he _burned_ for her? There’s another letter to her that requests that, as he’s given “two or three Millions [kisses] at least, when one has been received”, he deserves to be given “as many Kisses, and as many Hours of your Company after 9 O’Clock as he shall please to Demand”. He calls her “Miss Adorable” in that one. I really don’t like the book that this letter came from very much, as it displays some ideas that are rather contradictory to my own personal philosophy. But the chapter of love letters – oh, they are lovely and go a long ways to humanize these giants of history, as someone else called them. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/30 "2004-03-23T12:39:05Z")
> [@GMRyujin](#): > > The fact that they were, basically, just men of their times makes their story that much more powerful. If not for quite a few lucky breaks, they’d just be a bunch of rebellious traitors in a British history book. This is what I got out of this show the first time I saw it - on stage in the early 70s. It suddenly hit me that these bigger-than-life historical figures in the grand portraits were just a bunch of guys trying to do the best they could with what they had. A real “DUH” moment, but it was the first time I really considered that. Were they really special men or just ordinary men in special circumstances? One could ask the same of anyone. For that reason alone, I think this movie has value. ---
**Author:** ![welby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@welby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/welby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/31 "2004-03-23T14:17:31Z")
I am so embarrassed to be living in Fairfax County. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/32 "2004-03-23T14:23:54Z")
> [@lillalette](#): > > Let’s hope that these kids never get a chance to read _actual_ letters that John Adams wrote to his wife during their courtship. Hell, even in the movie he wrote her to ask “are my favorite lover’s pillows still firm and fair?” I think he was talking about her boobies! :eek: They should be watching MTV not that filth. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/33 "2004-03-23T14:25:03Z")
Just think how Fairfax County feels. I think you folks are overreacting. If we refuse to protect The Children from broadly implied dead white guy sex what will we protect them from? Really, it would be to everyone’s advantage if we all conducted ourselves as if it were the 18th century, instead of just learning about the 18th century, minus any powdered wig porn. Or possibly I’m just an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/34 "2004-03-23T14:39:27Z")
> [@Taters](#): > > . Well, okay, he “burns” for her. … You know, these days they have pills that’ll clear that right up. ---
**Author:** ![welby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@welby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/welby)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/35 "2004-03-23T14:53:45Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Just think how Fairfax County feels. Probably much the same. There can’t be too many people of my low caliber here, but we’re always looking for new people, **Ex.** ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/36 "2004-03-23T16:36:38Z")
As an educational tool, _1776_ definitely has value. 1. A great many of the lines are paraphrased or are exact quotations from the characters who speak them. All of Washington’s letters are genuine. Adams himself was responsible for his personal epithet of “obnoxious and disliked”. The list goes on and on. Hearing these lines spoken in their proper context makes them all the more meaningful and memorable. 2. As stated, the play/movie helps dispel the myth that the founding fathers were demigods. They were ordinary men in extraordinary times, endowed with the same prejudices, the same rivalries, the same pettiness that has always been the mark of the politician. They drank, they fooled around, they often acted out of selfishness rather than nobility. They were PEOPLE, damn it. And yes, some of them WERE buffoons. 3. The Declaration of Independence was not passed with the wholehearted support of all the delegates. In fact, it’s something of a miracle that it was every approved at all. Every time I see the movie, and Mr. Thompson says “The resolution on independence…is adopted,” I am struck by the enormity of the achievement. It passed by a hairsbreadth. And pondering just how different our world would be had Mr. Wilson refused to change his mind is, it’s almost overwhelming. 4. Many of the names permanently enshrined on the declaration are brought to life in a way that few textbooks could ever hope to achieve. When I first saw Delaware’s state quarter, I was thrilled by the tribute to Caesar Rodney. My first thought was that the man might actually be remembered by people other than historians and fans of _1776_. As it is, I’ve had to explain to at least two dozen people who the man was and why it was important. I majored in history, and did a lot of research on the Revolutionary War era. But the only reason _I_ knew who Caesar Rodney was was because of the movie. It sickens me that today’s social hypersensitivity prevents so many students from being exposed to things that challenge them, that force them to confront their own beliefs. That teach them to think, dammit! Stepping off my soap box. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631/37 "2004-03-23T22:00:50Z")
Indeed. The thing that struck me when I was reading Franklin was how well they captured him, at least based on the way he wrote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-last-someone-is-thinking-of-the-children/235631.md?page=1)