# At least 12 Sherpa guides dead in Mt. Everest avalanche **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 18, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422 "2014-04-18T15:02:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/21 "2014-04-21T13:10:35Z")
Apparently there is some talk of cancelling this year’s May climbing season. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/22 "2014-04-21T14:43:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Apparently there is some talk of cancelling this year’s May climbing season. I’m not sure how I feel about that. It’s a respectful gesture, but it would mean a big loss of income to the local people. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/23 "2014-04-21T14:49:37Z")
I’m sure that’s part of the debate. Some of the Sherpas are saying that if they season is cancelled they still want to be paid in full. Nepal is saying they can’t compel the foreign climbers to do that, but it would be a _really_ nice gesture (hint, hint). It would be strange if there weren’t mixed feelings. Apparently there’s be a one-week cooling off period declare for people to consider the options. We might see some expeditions cancel and some not. A reduction in the number of people attempting a climb might be a good thing. On the other hand, it seems all paths through the Khombu Icefall\* have been destroyed and all the path laying would have to be re-done. There might not be time to get it all done and get people up the mountain during the spring summit window. - Some place names serve as warning signs, like, for example, _Death Valley_ might reasonably be expected to be a hazardous place. It shouldn’t be surprising that a place named Khombu _Icefall_ is prone to falling ice a.k.a. avalanches. ---
**Author:** ![Scubaqueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@Scubaqueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scubaqueen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/24 "2014-04-21T16:00:10Z")
I’m with **Martian Bigfoot**. Climbing Everest or K2 is something to be watched on my nice widescreen tv from the depths of my comfy sofa. Never appealed to me as something to do personally, either. Even if I were in the best shape of my life and spent two years or more training for it, once you get to the Death Zone, all the physical conditioning in the world doesn’t matter. At that point, it’s a race against time to the summit and back down to a safe elevation vs your lungs filling up and killing you. No, thank you. My heart goes out to those local families who have lost so much. That cannot ever be replaced or made right. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/25 "2014-04-21T16:08:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Also, there is apparently a government-mandated life insurance required for sherpas employed on Everest that pays out $11,000. Will they pay out if the body isn’t found? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/26 "2014-04-21T16:18:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > They’re making 5,000-6,000 in two months, plus any tips they might receive. Then they have 10 more months of the year to earn more money. Seems to me there’s a potential for them to, indeed, “get ahead”. > > Also, there is apparently a government-mandated life insurance required for sherpas employed on Everest that pays out $11,000. Not great by first world standards, but apparently 20 times the average annual income for the region they come from. At least the families aren’t being left penniless. I guess what I am trying to emphasize is that while it is a lot by local standards, it’s not the same as a middle class guy in the US suddenly making a half million a year, which would make him very rich. While some prices are relative (especially services), the prices of globally traded good, including gasoline, grain, cement (for floors and walls), etc. are the same as they are here. Id say it’s more like a homeless guy suddenly making $20k. He will be the richest guy in the homeless camp and a lot of his immediate problems will go away, but he’ll still be facing some pretty serious economic insecurity. This kind of economic growth can be tricky, because when you have one industry who’s pay is so far out of synch with the rest of the economy, it hinders the growth of the kind of broad economic growth that keeps a region growing sustainably. Basically, if all your able bodied young men are guiding tourists up a mountain, they aren’t teaching school, starting businesses, selling crops, building factories or otherwise doing the things that will not only make them money, but will start building a consumer class that ultimately makes everyone money. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/27 "2014-04-21T18:34:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Id say it’s more like a homeless guy suddenly making $20k. He will be the richest guy in the homeless camp and a lot of his immediate problems will go away, but he’ll still be facing some pretty serious economic insecurity. You’re ignoring that the cost of living is enormously lower in Nepal, and these guys aren’t homeless. > [@](#): > > This kind of economic growth can be tricky, because when you have one industry who’s pay is so far out of synch with the rest of the economy, it hinders the growth of the kind of broad economic growth that keeps a region growing sustainably. Basically, if all your able bodied young men are guiding tourists up a mountain, they aren’t teaching school, starting businesses, selling crops, building factories or otherwise doing the things that will not only make them money, but will start building a consumer class that ultimately makes everyone money. There are an estimated 150,000 Sherpas world-wide. Only a few hundred, at most, are involved in mountaineering activities. While there are some that come back year after year there are clearly quite a few who do the work a few times to build a nest egg. They don’t just take the money and run. A few examples of what these folks have done with their mountaineering money: Pem Dorjee - has used his climbing wages to set up dental, eye, and health clinics in his home village, funded a school and a library, and help set up a new drinking water system. (He and his wife also exchanged wedding vows on top of Everest in 2005, making them the first couple to marry on the summit. Show-offs.) Apa Sherpa - used his climbing contacts to move his family to Utah for better business and educational opportunities. Meanwhile, he has continued to climb, reaching the summit of Everest 21 times (and counting). He also has a foundation that promotes education and business development back in Nepal because, hey, I guess he’s not busy enough. It should also be noted that Sherpa women also work on Everest, doing the same work and running the same risks as the men. Chhurim Sherpa is one such, who has even reached the summit twice in one season. Tough lady. I understand concerns about exploitation and disparate pay scales. The situation is far from perfect. It’s also a springboard for Sherpas to better their lives, the lives of other Nepalese, acquire nest-eggs to start those other businesses you, me, and everyone else would like to see in Nepal, and really does inject wealth into the local economies so there are some actual positive effects. It’s one of those complicated questions involving the global economy and what really does and doesn’t help people. Frankly, if ANYONE has any business on that mountain, and is entitled to make a profit off it, it would be the Nepalese. I have great sympathy for these folks who do a lot of hard work and take some bad-ass risks for visiting tourists, I’m sure they’re not paid nearly enough by any rational measure. The tourists … well, they pay their money and take their risks. I wish the Sherpas who are killed every year not just on Everest but other mountains as well captured the headlines and engendered as much sympathy as the westerners who die on the mountains. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/28 "2014-04-21T19:50:45Z")
I feel sorry for the families, but in my mind this is pretty much like working as a bomb disposal technician. You sign on knowing full well that it’s a really dangerous job. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/29 "2014-04-21T20:05:09Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I feel sorry for the families, but in my mind this is pretty much like working as a bomb disposal technician. You sign on knowing full well that it’s a really dangerous job. But, the thing is, bomb disposal technicians probably have other jobs they could have taken to make significant money for their families. Sure the risks to setting up the Everest climb for wealthy westerners is well understood, but the other option is poverty. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/30 "2014-04-21T21:22:39Z")
I’m pretty aware of cost of living differences, and have spent four years on about $4.00 a day. $6000 is a lot of money, but it doesn’t make the person pie-in-the-sky rich the way a ten-fold raise in income would here. It pays for basic medical care, school fees for the extended family, motorcycles and basic home improvements, which is indeed way better than being a subsistence farmer. But $6,000 isn’t even middle income. And these guys have large extended families to support. There are success stories, but most of these are much more moderate than the equivalent of a $400,000 windfall. Excess over around $7,000 will start buying luxuries, but less than that is very shaky economic ground anywhere in the world. The current insurance payout doesn’t even pay for a helicopter rescue or much medical care. It’s easy for a Sherpa to end up hopelessly in debt if they survive a close call. The death payouts are often consumed by funeral fees. And the death rate is more than 1%. That’s more dangerous than any American job at any price, including commercial fisherman and deployed soldiers at the height of the recent wars. It’s not really Mt Everest’s fault, but Nepal is dangerously over reliant on tourism. The first time I went there in 2003, the Maoists that controlled half the country issued a unique welcome letter to tourists, basically saying “pardon our dust.” If the tap of tourism money slowed even a bit, there wouldn’t be anything left worth fighting for. Boom resources of any type are rarely that great for a country, even though they seem to be. Tourism is easier to control and more sensitive to violence than, say, easily smuggled diamonds. But it’s a tough thing to build economic development around. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/31 "2014-04-21T22:54:52Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m pretty aware of cost of living differences, and have spent four years on about $4.00 a day. $6000 is a lot of money, but it doesn’t make the person pie-in-the-sky rich the way a ten-fold raise in income would here. No, it doesn’t make you rich, but it DOES jump start you out of the worst sort of poverty. If you don’t make that initial step you can’t make the next one. And you’re nuts if you think $400,000 in the US makes you “rich”. It is a very nice windfall, but it can go mighty fast if it isn’t managed well and if you aren’t getting it on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/32 "2014-04-23T00:33:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > They’re making 5,000-6,000 in two months, plus any tips they might receive. Then they have 10 more months of the year to earn more money. Seems to me there’s a potential for them to, indeed, “get ahead”. > > Also, there is apparently a government-mandated life insurance required for sherpas employed on Everest that pays out $11,000. Not great by first world standards, but apparently 20 times the average annual income for the region they come from. At least the families aren’t being left penniless. A top high-altitude guide can earn 6K in a three-month climbing season, nearly 10 times Nepal’s $700 average annual salary. - From the print edition, SF Chron. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/33 "2014-04-23T00:41:14Z")
On the other hand if you look at the total amount that Mt. Everest explorers spend on their expeditions, the Sherpas who climb mountains are probably getting a fairly small percent–so it would not be very costly in the grand scheme of things to double the payments to them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/34 "2014-04-23T00:56:32Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > On the other hand if you look at the total amount that Mt. Everest explorers spend on their expeditions, the Sherpas who climb mountains are probably getting a fairly small percent–so it would not be very costly in the grand scheme of things to double the payments to them. Agreed, yet I have no idea how fees are negotiated. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/35 "2014-04-23T03:59:40Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Still not the deadliest year - that was the 1996 season when 19 died and various books (most famously **Into Thin Air** ) were written - but the deadliest single incident IIRC. There was some speculation after the\* Into Thin Air \*incident that a certain amount of crowding on the mountain, including a traffic jam at the high-up Hillary Step on May 10th, may have contributed to the '96 death toll. Twenty-four people summited the mountain on that day. By comparison, on May 23 2010, the top was reached by _a hundred and seventy_ people ([Cite](http://www.8000ers.com/cms/download.html?func=startdown&id=153)). The mind boggles. I suspect that the late nineties, when Everest commercialisation was still in its relative infancy, is already “the good old days” to people involved in the industry. Reading accounts of '96, there were a number of different expeditions on the mountain, and they didn’t all have great relations with each other, but at least everyone knew who pretty much everyone else on the mountain _was_. That’s certainly not the case these days. There is an excellent article on the current tourism industry, including an incredible picture [here.](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/30/everest-mountaineer-crowding-hobby-tragedy) As long as the numbers of people getting onto the mountain every year keep going up and up, I imagine the yearly death toll is likely to go up and up with it, though per ascents attempted it’s probably safer than ever. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/36 "2014-04-23T04:27:06Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > On the other hand if you look at the total amount that Mt. Everest explorers spend on their expeditions, the Sherpas who climb mountains are probably getting a fairly small percent–so it would not be very costly in the grand scheme of things to double the payments to them. The more they are paid, the more unethical it is to accept payment. The sherpa do not risk their lives to rescue dying people… when someone is most likely going to die, they just leave them behind…very unethical ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/37 "2014-04-23T04:33:04Z")
So… the Sherpas are unethical for doing the _exact same thing as everyone else on the mountain?_ Virtually no one attempts a rescue in the Death Zone for someone who can no longer walk. Of the few who have, some of the would-be rescuers have died. Leaving the dying behind to increase the survival chances of those still living is as much triage as anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/38 "2014-04-23T06:08:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… the Sherpas are unethical for doing the _exact same thing as everyone else on the mountain?_ Virtually no one attempts a rescue in the Death Zone for someone who can no longer walk. Of the few who have, some of the would-be rescuers have died. > > Leaving the dying behind to increase the survival chances of those still living is as much triage as anything else. Was thinking the same thing. There is no luxury of saving in that environment. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/39 "2014-04-23T12:00:35Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Was thinking the same thing. There is no luxury of saving in that environment. Which is why I think the whole thing is a bad scene. A hobby that strips people of their basic humanity isn’t a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422/40 "2014-04-23T12:10:12Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > The sherpa do not risk their lives to rescue dying people… There are many counter examples to this - some Sherpas have been heroes that went above and beyond the call of duty. Some have not. How do you differentiate between “dying people” and “people who with die without help?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-least-12-sherpa-guides-dead-in-mt-everest-avalanche/686422.md?page=3)