# At this point, do you really want your guy to win? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351 "2000-11-15T19:40:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Myron\_Finkelstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@Myron\_Finkelstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myron_Finkelstein)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/21 "2000-11-16T18:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*The next time, you’ll have a candidate with incredible institutional power and some record of accomplishment running for re-election against a proven loser who ran a weak campaign the last time and won’t have had much opportunity to fix those problems. \*\* It seems to me that the last 20 years of presidential politics actually contradicts your thesis. Reagan and Clinton won re-election largely on the force of their charisma and the happenstance of a good econony. Carter and Bush lost re-election despite incumbency because of a charisma deficit and the happenstance of a bad economy. The “winner” of this race will be re-elected in 4 years only if he has a good economy behind him (no guarantees there) and if he has the telegenic charisma that the populace seems to want in a president. Not knowing the state of the economy in 4 years I can make a guess about the charisma issue. I watched Gore last evening giving his “offer” to Bush. Whoooosh. It made my skin crawl. His demeanor and weird tonal inflections accompanied by that strange head bobbing he utilizies is like nails on a blackboard to me. If he wins I guess I’ll be changing the channel every time he appears on TV - just like I’ve been doing for the last four years whenever the president shows up, although for a different reason. Bush at least has a better TV persona, a little light-weight for sure, but at least he’s not some repulsive Cardassian lizard creature. BTW, I’d like to thank all the respondents to this my first thread, it’s my first one on this highly intelligent board and I’m encouraged by the thoughtful discussion that ensued. ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/22 "2000-11-16T19:32:22Z")
Well **Myron** , now that you are no longer a virgin by a thread, (bad metaphor, huh), here’s hoping that you’ll continue to inspire the board. SouthernStyle ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/23 "2000-11-17T03:30:36Z")
You gotta be Machiavellian here, unless you’re one of the two presidential contenders. Points to consider: 1 - The party in the White House always loses seats in the midterm elections. Given the narrowness of the lead the Republicans have, they’re guaranteed to lose control of both houses of Congress in '02 if Bush wins. The Dems, if Gore wins, fall even further behind. 2 - This is as far from 1960 as you can get. Even though its still disputed whether or not Kennedy won the popular vote, he won more than 300 electoral votes, more than enough to give him all the legitimacy he needed. Isn’t true this time around. Neither of them will be able to accomplish much of anything, other than losing both houses of Congress for their party in '02. 3 - It’s a slam dunk that the economy is going to suffer some sort of cyclical downturn sometime during the next four years. This will make whoever’s in the White House look bad, and will mean they’ll lose whatever little bit of advantage they might have had from incumbency. By '04, incumbency may even be a liability. I wanted Gore, but there’s no way I want him to take office. I agree with Southern Style (yikes!) that Gore’s a loser, a congenital loser. Guy couldn’t even win his home state. Let Bush have it. And then, let 'im have it! ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/24 "2000-11-17T14:05:35Z")
Gee **Phantom** , you’ve put us in a very precarious position. You’ve publicly agreed with me about something, now if I can just get **jshore-** to do the same the world will undoubtedly come to an end. 😉 Though I’d prefer your support for other reasons, I’m not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, either. I welcome you into the “Bush for President” camp. SouthernStyle ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/25 "2000-11-17T14:11:12Z")
There seems to be a school of thought (mostly among Democrats), that it is better in the long run to let the opposing candidate win the election and suffer the consequences of the downturn in the economy, midterm elections and the like. I would remind folks of the old adage that a bird in hand is two in the Bush. There’s no predicting what will happen years from now. The economy could go south and recover by 2004 (as happened with Reagan), and any number of other complicating factors could interfere. I say go for broke now, and worry about the future later. ---
**Author:** ![Gemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gemini)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/26 "2000-11-17T14:36:37Z")
But there’s a third possible outcome – that the recount is done, but whether it is counted or not, still does not show Gore to be ahead (esp. with the overseas ballots counted), and thus it was a moot point anyway. True, the margin is awfully slim, percentage-wise. But you can only recount so many times hoping to accomplish anything. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/27 "2000-11-18T00:40:37Z")
That’s pantom, Southern Style, not phantom. When you put the name on the business card, please get it right? Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/28 "2000-11-18T00:54:46Z")
If my guy _doesn’t_ win, the environment gets raped, the national debt doesn’t get paid off, and American Indians, many of them my friends, once again face the prospect of the dissection of their sovereignty. My job and my career are endangered. Do I still want my guy to win? Hell yes! But I don’t see how he’s going to without stealing the election, and I don’t want that either. I’m willing to fight my ass off for the next two to four years, despite the damage that will inevitably be done. In the meantime, we have an uninformed, inexperienced marionette in our most important office. The Republican party is quite diverse. Which puppeteer is going to be pulling the national strings? John McCain? Tom Delay? Newt Gingrich? Jesse Helms? Pat Robertson? Pat Buchanan? Rush Limbaugh? Gordon Liddy? Maybe all of them at the same time? I make this promise: you Republicans have _absolutely no guarantee_ that Bush will support _any_ of the issues that you, as a conservative, consider most important to you. To paraphrase a famous Southern Conservative, it all depends on who gets to him firstest with the mostest, and screw your opinion. My candidate is a filthy, dishonest, weasel of a politician who caves in sometimes and twists in the political breeze. But he is solid on the issues I consider most important, and will remain so because it will always be in his best interest–there are people out there who make sure of that. Who’s making sure of your interests, Republicans? Better find out fast… ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/29 "2000-11-18T02:17:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by whitetho \* > > \*\*If the final outcome is 271-269 in favor of Bush, but then two of Bush’s electors actually vote for McCain, the election would be thrown into the House of Representatives, to choose between the top three vote getters, and McCain could be elected as a compromise candidate. \*\* > > There are 538 electors, meaning you’d need 4 switches. \*\* Dear Lord! Are **these** some of the people arguing that Florida voters mispunched the ballot “because they were stupid”? :rolleyes: **ONE** elector needs to switch to make a 271-269 count 270-all. Let’s spell it out step by step for you…this one elector removes his vote from Bush (it’s now 270-269) and gives it to Gore (it’s now 270-270). Sheesh. **NO** more arguments about "stupid Florida electors, mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/30 "2000-11-18T02:32:29Z")
There are 538 electors. That means a tie would have to be at 269. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/31 "2000-11-18T02:35:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jello \* > \*\*There are 538 electors. That means a tie would have to be at 269. \*\* So there can’t be a 271-269 count at all, then? Now how many electors have to change their minds? Blubblugblgubugluglbuglbug… ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/32 "2000-11-18T02:54:02Z")
Hey, I’ll probably be _leaving_ the US in four years or fewer. For good. I’d just as soon my guy (Gore) won. Won’t be around for the backlash. ‘Sides, I’ve got a younger brother who will be just about soldierin’ age after he graduates, and I think Gore is slightly less likely to declare random wars on small Third World nations. Only slightly, of course… ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/33 "2000-11-18T02:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Dear Lord! Are these some of the people arguing that Florida voters mispunched the ballot “because they were stupid”? > > ONE elector needs to switch to make a 271-269 count 270-all. > [@](#): > > There are 538 electors. That means a tie would have to be at 269. OK folks… I think we’ve all been reading just a few too many election threads. 🙂 Since the original proposal called for Bush electors to switch to **McCain** , not to Gore, it would require **four** electors to make it a 267-267-4 tie. However, it does not require a tie for the election to go to the house, merely that no candidate receive a majority of the electoral votes. Therefore a switch of **one** Bush elector to McCain would be sufficient to bring IzzyR’s scenario into fruition, at 270-267-1. P.S- I just know I’ve made a glaring error somewhere, but what the hell- I’ll be in good company when it is pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/34 "2000-11-18T03:03:15Z")
If Bush did such a bad job as governer then why did his home state vote for him? If Gore is such a better canidate why didn’t tennisee vote for him? Obviously they would know him best. Sofa King, so your claiming Gore is solid on the enviroment and that he will pay off the national debt? ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/35 "2000-11-18T03:21:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Therefore a switch of one Bush elector to McCain would be sufficient to bring IzzyR’s scenario into fruition, at 270-267-1. That would be _whitetho’s_ scenario > [@](#): > > P.S- I just know I’ve made a glaring error somewhere, but what the hell- I’ll be in good company when it is pointed out. I knew it! ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/36 "2000-11-18T03:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*If Bush did such a bad job as governer then why did his home state vote for him? > \*\* The South usually votes Republican regardless of how brain damaged the candidate is. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If Gore is such a better canidate why didn’t tennisee vote for him?\*\* The South usually votes Republican regardless of how qualified the Democrat is. tj ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/37 "2000-11-18T06:05:35Z")
Sheesh! This truly is a thread with the power to cloud men’s minds. Let’s try one more time- **Two** Bush electors switching to McCain would result in a 269-267-2 tally, sending it to the House. This thing has been recounted more times than a punchcard ballot with a pregnant chad. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/38 "2000-11-18T06:42:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SouthernStyle \* > now if I can just get **jshore-** to do the same the world will undoubtedly come to an end. 😉 Don’t worry, **SouthernStyle** , I think the world is pretty safe! 😉 This is a great thread topic though…because I really have been mulling over this question in my head quite a bit. In the end, I end up in about the same place as **Gadarene** and **RTFirefly**. I keep thinking, maybe it is just better if Bush wins and we takes our chances on 2004 (and the 2002 midterm elections) and then I start thinking about the Supreme Court and the environment and the estate tax and Trent Lott and Tom DeLay…and then my skin starts to crawl. If Gore does prevail though, I do hope that he does so in a way that is generally perceived as fair (well, not necessarily including the strongest Bush partisans — that’s sort of unlikely)…and not by just having played the game a little better. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2000, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/39 "2000-11-19T05:47:12Z")
Yes, Asmodean, I do believe Gore is solid on the environment and the national debt. He will not back away from the commitments that we currently have, unless some big-ass horses get traded. How do I know this? I know the people who watch him intently–lobbyists (I suppose I rate as one myself, but I’m a one-trick pony–feel free to call me pond scum). That’s as close as you’re gonna get to “solid” in the Waffle Zone. He’s got a ton o’ bricks shored up under those two planks. Reversal of position, particularly in the precarious situation such as he would be in, would be the political equivalent of _hari kiri_. Gore’s too smart for that. I’m not certain at all about the other guy, and you shouldn’t be either, because nobody nailed him down on _anything_. With a Republican-controlled Congress and a packed Supreme Court, we may not be able to ever reverse the vacuous decisions of an empty suit. _And you don’t know what those decisions will be._ I can hang with that, but it’s not easy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2000, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351/40 "2000-11-19T06:02:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > **If Bush did such a bad job as governer then why did his home state vote for him? > If Gore is such a better canidate why didn’t tennisee vote for him? Obviously they would know him best.** The campaign is over; you can drop that stuff. Here are possible answers anyway: Texans will vote for anybody from Texas (Yee-hawww!!!). Tennesseans will vote along party lines, like most people. It’s now a GOP-dominated state, like much of the south. And anyway, didn’t Bush try to hammer on a point about Gore really being from DC, not Tennesee? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-this-point-do-you-really-want-your-guy-to-win/41351.md?page=3)