At what level is racialism accepted in the scientific community?

Provide a cite, specially regarding “no good data” (not to be confused with ‘no support from population genetics’, whatever that means). We have been discussing two major data points:

A survey in which psychometricians and behavioral geneticists were asked if they felt that the Black-White IQ difference had a genetic component.

A letter in which population geneticists said that population genetics provides "no support from the field of population genetics for Wade’s conjectures”.

The latter only discusses supposed “population genetic” non-evidence. It’s problematic, among other reasons, because Wade himself was dismissive of genetic IQ differences. Here is what he said on the topic:

Depending on how you read it, either Wade didn’t speculate about genetic IQ differences (he just noted the speculations of others and critiqued them in passing) or he speculated about both the existence and non-existence of such differences (he noted the hypothesis and wrote dismissively of it). Thus, saying that the “population genetic” evidence doesn’t support his speculations says precisely nothing on the matter! Again, I will request a clarification later as the statement is not at all clear.

How can I cite “no good data”? I’ve described, many times, what would count as “good data” that supports the “black people have inferior genes for intelligence” hypothesized answer to the question of the test score gap: find all the genes responsible for high and low intelligence and find their relative prevalence in various ppopulations.

Data about test scores does nothing to answer the question of why the test score gap exists. Showing that there are some genetic differences between populations does nothing to annswer the question of why the test score gap exists. If you think the answer is “black people’s genes for intelligence are inferior”, then you need to actually find all the genes for intelligence, as just a first step.

Given the high heritability of IQ, it’s statistically probable that arbitrary subpopulational differences have a genetic component. The math pertaining to individual differences in given here. As such, the behavioral genetic default is that group differences are partially heritable. They might not be – it’s easy to think of examples in which group differences are fully environmental – but not being partially heritable is not the default position.

Even if this is accepted (and it’s not), it tells us nothing about black people’s genes. Test scores tell us nothing about genes. The only thing that tells about the genes for intelligence of black people is data about the genes for intelligence in black people.

As you claimed that there was a consensus, I was expecting a link to a survey…

…but then you idiosyncratically defined “good data”. By this definition there also is “no good evidence” that the differences are in part due to environmental factors. After all, no one has determined all of the environmental influences on intelligence. How then could we possibly know how all of the factors stack up?

Except, when it comes to genes we can know since if there was selection for IQ, it would have exerted itself across the genome. Thus, gene frequencies would
correlate. Thus, to establish that there were regional differences in selective pressure for IQ (or other polygenic traits), one merely has to establish that there are correlated allelic differences. As GC recently noted:

So, no one doesn’t need all of the genes. Only a heap is needed.

Sure there is. Socio-economic factors play a role, even if they are not the whole story. Richer black kids score higher than poorer black kids.

Further, there has been a study (conveniently ignored by your side) that tried to find a direct correlation between percentage of African genetic ancestry and test scores among self-identified African Americans. There was zero correlation – the “blacker” black people scored no lower than the ones with less African ancestry. It’s an older study, but the methodology was fine… your side seems way, way too cowardly and/or lazy to try and replicate it with more modern techniques.

We don’t.

So far, we have pretty much none of them.

The “data about the genes for intelligence in black [and White] people” allows us to make a probabilistic statement, given that nothing else is known about the groups in question except that they differ in latent ability. The point was that the behavioral genetic default – i.e., what is assumed in absence of evidence – isn’t no genes.

Recall, you reasoned that in absence of evidence we should assume pure environmentality.

We don’t have such data, so we can make no statements about it.

I made no such statement.

There were two studies and neither had the statistical power to either confirm or disconfirm a genetic hypothesis. So no, the methodologies were not fine. See here.

It has been confirmed, however, that education, income, and occupational status correlate with African genetic ancestry in the AA population. Regarding IQ, the reason results haven’t been published is simply because no one wants to publish them. The data is there e.g.,

Why don’t you write the authors and request the ancestry x IQ results. They should have looked at them when doing the analysis.

Says one guy. Not convinced by one guy, though one or two studies are never enough. Conveniently (and lazily), your side hasn’t tried to do the study again with modern methods.

How convenient for the “blacks are dumber” side.

More excuses for why your side has no data on the genes. They just didn’t publish it… maybe they were too busy? Or afraid of conspiracies? Maybe they didn’t want tons of money and exposure from making a scientific breakthrough?

We have data on the heritability of IQ in the Black and White populations. I was merely saying that this allows for a probablistic know-nothing-else statement. I cited the Tal (2009) paper regarding probabilistic inferences and heritability.

Indeed. I misread the original. I respectfully withdraw the claim.

It sounds like you’re not saying much at all. Why, then, are you so eager to resurrect 19th century ideas about the intelligence of black people that were responsible for so much evil and suffering?

IQ obviously correlates with EU Ancestry in the AA population. We know this because it correlates with self reported EU ancestry and with skin color in the same population and because individuals with one black and one white parent perform intermediate to those with two black or two white and since some of these inds go onto ID as “Black”. Also, since education, income, and occupational status correlate with IQ in the AA population, and since they correlate with EU genetic ancestry, one would expect IQ too likewise.

So a raw correlation wouldn’t tell us much. Rather, one would want to see if the IQ- genetic ancestry correlation was driving rather than being driven by the others.

A while back Murray tried to organize a research team to resolve this issue. Hereditarians signed up but he couldn’t get environmentalists on board and so dropped the issue, reasoning that no one would trust the results. He discussed his attempt in a yahoo evolutionary psychology message thread; I’ll look for it when I get a chance. I agree that it was foolish to not go ahead with the study, if in fact he could have done it.

If I could get my hands on a good data set I would pay someone to do it. But it’s all IRB locked up. Generally, racial hereditarians e.g., Rowe (2005), Rushton and Jensen (2005), Murray (2005) have stated that their position could be falsified using admixture mapping – but, apparently, no one wants to try it.

Cite that self-identified African Americans with higher levels of european ancestry score higher on IQ tests?

Again, very convenient – they could do it themselves, of course. Good scientists are supposed to try and falsify their conclusions.

Blacks (in the U.S. at least) are intellectually “inferior”; the question is why. The differential and its antecedents are currently blamed on evil White people. Since the true cause is uncertain (2014 intelligence survey!) the issue should be investigated and resolved. I’ve looked into the matter for about four years and haven’t found any piece of evidence that seriously contradicts a modest hereditarian model. Thus, I’ve concluded that either the nutty cultural marxists who see discrimination everywhere or the nutty racialists who see a Cathedral conspiracy are correct. Either race or racism. Either way the issue is sociopolitically interesting to me.

At least you openly admit your racist opinions.

I have a question for those who know more about genetics. How does epigenetics play into all of this? My impression is that we are in the early stages of understanding epigenetic phenomena, but that we believe at least some of the differences in inherited traits is due not to different genes but to different experiences of recent ancestors. So, for example, if someone’s grandparent experienced a famine they may process insulin differently–not because they have different genes, but because the actual mechanism of expression is changed epigenetically.

If all of that is correct, it seems like an error to conflate heritability and genes. Even if a trait is shown to be heritable, the cause could be epigenetic rather than genetic. Doesn’t it seem entirely plausible that brutally oppressing a population of people will cause several generations of their descendants to express genes (the same genes everyone else has) in different ways, if the epigenetic hypothesis is true?

(Edits. Sorry, it’s late. I’ll continue another time.)

I said “self reported ancestry”. I did some analyses myself – though I haven’t got around to publishing (in an open psych journal, of course). The primary sources (e.g., Add Health, NLSY79, NLSY97) are publicly accessible so you can verify if you want.

I guess – except that IRBs won’t grant approval, so the type of data isn’t available. Of course, a hereditarian could collect data on their own. I think that’s where the intellectual laziness comes in. For example, one could use SAT scores and 23andME admixture results. The thing is it would be hard to get critics to believe. When you use national data, on the other hand, the raw data isn’t suspect.

Sounds about as useful as “self reported intelligence” would be.

The related question is: where does this hypothesis fall in terms of the “racist scum” scale?

Because suppose you bought into this, you would be then saying that the genetic differences are not inherent to the group, in the sense that it could change back relatively quickly in future generations (as compared to evolution), but would still be saying that the genetic differences are inherent to the current members of the group.

Is that acceptable from a PC standpoint?