# At what level of pain to Hamas/Palestine will Israel achieve military victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632 "2014-08-02T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/201 "2014-08-07T21:32:32Z")
Military arms and equipment are a major export for Israel. The ‘expenditure’ by the Israeli and US governments go to corporations that make a profit. It is companies that transport controlled products into Gaza for a profit. Israel does not allow coutside competition and it’s not a charitable act. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/202 "2014-08-07T21:34:50Z")
This is correct. By many standards, military spending is “dead end” spending. Imagine building a bridge across the Missouri River…with the sole intent of blowing it up. That’s how it is with armaments. They don’t produce wealth. They don’t move product, manufacture product, sell product. And, yes, it does create jobs…but they aren’t the kinds of jobs that create other jobs. Any economist would far rather see money put into roads, electrical grid, port facilities, water transport, etc., than spent on weapons. (However…any economist would also rather spend money on weapons than see his country destroyed.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/203 "2014-08-07T22:25:06Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Military arms and equipment are a major export for Israel. Do they export more than they import? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/204 "2014-08-08T03:13:07Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Military arms and equipment are a major export for Israel. . . . I’d like to see a breakdown of that. My instinct is that they sell off their surplus to people outside the region entirely, lest it be used against them, and that they only sell off lower-grade leftovers, rather than the good stuff, for the same reason. I certainly could be wrong here, but I’d like to see some (vaguely impartial) analysis. (In comparison, for instance, it is well known that the Soviet Union only sold “crap” equipment to their Arab allies, and this is part of the reason the Arab armies made such a poor showing against Israel in '56, '67, and '73. The Soviets sold, or gave, stripped-down tanks, for instance, which they rudely called their “monkey models” – a Soviet term, not mine! Lesser optics, lesser guns, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/205 "2014-08-08T03:58:30Z")
Israel does have a fairly large defense industry (which is what happens when you’re surrounded by countries that historically have wanted to kill you), and reached about 7 billion in exports in 2012, mostly to the US, Europe and India, but also Southeast Asia and Latin America…a lot of it is aerospace; drones, military satellites, radars, anti-ballistic missiles, stuff like that. They used to sell to Turkey, but now that the relationship has cooled off, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/206 "2014-08-08T22:35:24Z")
Israel has left the negotions. Hamas has resumed firing rodkets in protest. Hamas is winning - Israel will have to greatly modify it’s siege of the Gaza Ghetto. Crane ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/207 "2014-08-08T22:50:20Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel has left the negotions. > > Hamas has resumed firing rodkets in protest. > > Hamas is winning - Israel will have to greatly modify it’s siege of the Gaza Ghetto. > > Crane Could you expand on why you feel they are winning? Because you just said this military exercise is a boon to the Israeli economy. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/208 "2014-08-08T23:12:45Z")
Israel invaded Gaza to stop the rockets, demilitarize Gaza, destroy the smuggler’s tunnels and to destroy Hamas. Israel destroyed some number of tunnels, killed hundreds of civilians, killed some number of Hamas soldiers and some number of Israeli soldiers and withdrew. The goal for Hamas was to survive the invasion, which they have done. Hamas is the elected political party, in Gaza, that will negotiate the peace with Israel. Israel did not achieve it’s goals. Hamas did. Hamas has won. Israel must negotiate directly with Hamas. Crane If the allies had withdrawn from Normandy on the first of July 1944, it would have been considered a German Victory. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/209 "2014-08-08T23:21:19Z")
Well I am sure that as they recline in the smoking hole, both physically and economically, that is Gaza, with no lifting of the blockade, Hamas can take comfort in the fact that they won. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/210 "2014-08-08T23:25:37Z")
I think it more likely that Israel will have to modify the blockade. Israel may be at a turning point in the propaganda war. Crane ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/211 "2014-08-08T23:32:36Z")
The opposite. Hamas broke the ceasefire, i.e. can’t be trusted, i.e. blockade can never be lifted while they are in power. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/212 "2014-08-08T23:39:10Z")
CarnalK, If Hamas lost then what did Israel win? Territory to occupy and annex? Destruction of enemy ability and will to fight? Improved negotiating position? Control of resources and markets? Crane ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/213 "2014-08-08T23:49:21Z")
Destruction of the tunnels for a return to the status quo. Personally I think a full occupation and an attempt at making Gaza a useful territory would have been the better though harder play. However the geniuses in charge clearly just wanted to smack Hamas down a few pegs. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/214 "2014-08-08T23:52:38Z")
So, the invasion was just punitive? Crane ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/215 "2014-08-08T23:58:07Z")
Destruction of the tunnels and a splash of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/216 "2014-08-09T01:34:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The opposite. Hamas broke the ceasefire, i.e. can’t be trusted, i.e. blockade can never be lifted while they are in power. Israel can’t be trusted either, so they’re even. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/217 "2014-08-09T02:07:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Israel can’t be trusted either, so they’re even. What ceasefire did Israel recently violate? For that matter has Netanyahu claimed that Muslims regularly kidnap Christian children to make hummus? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/218 "2014-08-09T02:47:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For that matter has Netanyahu claimed that Muslims regularly kidnap Christian children to make hummus? I thought it was Pesach matzoh. Surely no one claims that is done now. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/219 "2014-08-09T03:27:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought it was Pesach matzoh. > Surely no one claims that is done now. [http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/06/blood-libel-the-short-history-of-a-dangerous-myth/](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/06/blood-libel-the-short-history-of-a-dangerous-myth/) There. Osama Hamdan’s statement: > [@](#): > > We all remember how the Jews used to slaughter Christians, in order to mix their blood in their holy matzos. This is not a figment of imagination or something taken from a film. It is a fact, acknowledged by their own books and by historical evidence. It happened everywhere, here and there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/220 "2014-08-09T04:30:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought it was Pesach matzoh. > Surely no one claims that is done now. Hamas does. Here’s their top representative in Lebanon, Osama Hamdan. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDe1h3hJ6c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDe1h3hJ6c) Why would this surprise anyone. Here’s Hamas’ charter on the Jews. > [@](#): > > With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein.\*\* They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests.\*\* Is believing Jews kidnap children to make into Matzoh really more absurd than the bolded part of the above paragraph? Keep in mind we’ve had at least one doper argue that the Blood Libel was “based on fact”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=12)