# At what level of pain to Hamas/Palestine will Israel achieve military victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632 "2014-08-02T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/221 "2014-08-09T14:01:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hamas does. Here’s their top representative in Lebanon, Osama Hamdan. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDe1h3hJ6c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlDe1h3hJ6c) Jesus Ch…I mean, Ove gevalt! My Maternal Grandfather voted against a guy joining his Mason’s lodge because the guy was Jewish. He must have missed a staff meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/222 "2014-08-09T16:58:33Z")
The Rotary Club? Those _fiends_! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/223 "2014-08-10T12:06:34Z")
At least Hamas doesn’t yet know that we Jews also founded the Loyal Order or Water Buffaloes. Yes, we have been secretly manipulating human society since pre-historic times. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/224 "2014-08-10T13:00:43Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > At least Hamas doesn’t yet know that we Jews also founded the Loyal Order or Water Buffaloes. Yes, we have been secretly manipulating human society since pre-historic times. Oh hell, I forgot my Illuminati dues! ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/225 "2014-08-10T14:04:00Z")
There is not much more that Israel can do to Gaza - total economic control, military blockade and murderous invasion. Not much is left. Also, the Iron Dome exchange has provided sufficient data. Now it is a matter of using $100,000 dollar missiles to perhaps knock down a $1000 rocket. Also, Hamas and others are gathering data on the effectiveness of the Iron Dome. The Israeli strategy of overwhelming force has failed. The Palestinians are at the negotiating table and Israel has withdrawn. It’s an interesting impasse. Crane ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/226 "2014-08-10T17:11:01Z")
You sure are confident for someone who seems so wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/227 "2014-08-10T17:26:16Z")
During the war with Japan the US, UK and Russia created an equitable peace agreement at Potsdam. This was rejected by Japan. The US persisted while the Japanese were using allied prisoners for slave labor, sending balloon bombs across the Pacific (9300 bombs, 6 deaths), conducting suicide attacks on our military and sending the worlds largest battleship out of port. The Japanese were not deterred by US bombardment. The US persisted under these conditions and a peace was negotiated. The current Israeli position is absurd. The only solution available is political and that will require negotiation. The Palestinians have accepted another truce. At present Israel refuses to negotiate. Peace is Israel’s choice. Crane ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/228 "2014-08-10T18:17:49Z")
So Hamas is the Japanese Empire in your analogy? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/229 "2014-08-10T18:24:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So Hamas is the Japanese Empire in your analogy? Does that mean they can nuke Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/230 "2014-08-10T19:03:10Z")
[Here’s a video](http://vimeo.com/50531435)that explains exactly who will be the victor in this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/231 "2014-08-10T19:09:55Z")
CarnalK, No, but the balloon bombs were a greater threat to me at the time than the rockets are to southern Israel. Outside of extermination there is only a political solution. Neither Israel or Hamas can improve their negotiating position by military action. The rockets are not an issue. Israel is in posession of all of the power. Hamas has nothing. Israel must create and propose an equitable solution. That is the parallel. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/232 "2014-08-10T19:28:04Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > CarnalK, > > No, but the balloon bombs were a greater threat to me at the time than the rockets are to southern Israel. > > Outside of extermination there is only a political solution. Neither Israel or Hamas can improve their negotiating position by military action. The rockets are not an issue. > > Israel is in posession of all of the power. Hamas has nothing. Israel must create and propose an equitable solution. That is the parallel. > > Crane Except that Israel has proposed solutions. The Palestinians rejected them and Hamas has made it clear they will never agree to a solution that allows for the extistance of the Jewish state. Yes, they have suggested at times a hudna(ceasefire), but I’m sure you’re familiar with Islamic history and why they use the term hudna. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/233 "2014-08-10T19:31:06Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel is in posession of all of the power. Hamas has nothing. Israel must create and propose an equitable solution. I don’t think that’s what _“must”_ means. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/234 "2014-08-10T20:09:52Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The current Israeli position is absurd. The only solution available is political and that will require negotiation. > Crane Are you Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf ? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/235 "2014-08-10T20:18:20Z")
Ibn, Everything is negotiable and state propaganda is not binding. When did the current administration of Israel make an equitable peace offer? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/236 "2014-08-10T20:33:33Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > . . . The Palestinians are at the negotiating table and Israel has withdrawn. . . . Hamas broke the cease-fire. Israel doesn’t negotiate during periods of fighting, save only to propose cease-fires…which Hamas breaks, time and time again. Israel didn’t withdraw because they aren’t willing to negotiate. They withdrew because of rockets in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/237 "2014-08-10T20:36:04Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > . . . The rockets are not an issue. . . . How could anyone conceivably believe that? I guess Israeli shelling of Gaza is “not an issue.” The Right of Return is “not an issue.” Hey, groovy, we just solved the entire problem! No issues exist; there are no obstacles to peace. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/238 "2014-08-10T20:40:39Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Ibn, > > Everything is negotiable and state propaganda is not binding. Hamas is not a state. Are you saying Hamas doesn’t really believe that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs for who the killing of children is deeply ingrained in their psychology to the point that they used to kidnap Christian children and then bake them into Matzoh? What makes you believe that? Do you feel that the KKK also doesn’t believe they’re racist propaganda? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/239 "2014-08-10T20:46:38Z")
The rockets are not an issue if Israel wants a resolution to the problem. As posted above, Japan was a beligerent all during the Potsdam negotiations. The Japanese balloon bombs killed more US citizens than the Gaza rockets have killed Israelis. Is there a moral imperative here, or is it just might makes right? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/240 "2014-08-10T20:48:16Z")
Ibn, Who knows what the leaders actually believe? the fact is that everything is negotiable. Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=13)