# At what level of pain to Hamas/Palestine will Israel achieve military victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632 "2014-08-02T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/261 "2014-08-11T15:14:01Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Obama may possess the political will for the US to abstain when this issue next comes before the Security Council. > > Crane I would hold off betting the farm on that if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/262 "2014-08-11T15:39:15Z")
Of course, even if that happens, Russia or China may step in as the White Knight and use their veto. There’s no good guys in this. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/263 "2014-08-11T16:02:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > And - the statement is propaganda, not part of a negotiation. > > Crane I’m not even sure what this means. Do you have instances where the Palestinians were willing to negotiate over the right to return, or volunteered to give something up in return for the end of settlements? I don’t mean ‘give me what I want and we can discuss what you want later, maybe’. I mean [something like](http://www.hnlr.org/2012/03/why-camp-david-ii-failed-a-negotiation-theory-perspective/)’here is 95+% of what you have been asking for in terms of territory. Do you accept, or would you make a counter-offer?’ > [@](#): > > Clinton offered his last proposal. Barak, who had wagered his political career on the potential deal, endorsed it. Arafat made no counteroffer and gave no explanation. Instead, he simply walked away. > > Arafat’s exit shocked the world: “Arafat’s decision to walk away from these offers, effectively ending the Oslo peace process and inflaming the burgeoning second intifada . . . stunned the U.S. and Israeli leaders.”[1] Shortly after, in his New York Times column “Foreign Affairs; Yasir Arafat’s Moment,” Thomas Friedman explained to the American public that Arafat “played rope-a-dope. He came with no compromise ideas of his own on Jerusalem. He simply absorbed Mr. Barak’s proposals and repeated Palestinian mantras about recovering all of East Jerusalem.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/264 "2014-08-11T16:05:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Of course, even if that happens, Russia or China may step in as the White Knight and use their veto. > > There’s no good guys in this. > > Crane No, there isn’t. But there is one side that is never ever going to ‘win’. Israel is quite rightly there to stay. The only question is its borders. The right to return is never going to happen either. Whatever the rights or wrongs it’s well past the possibility of Hamas getting anything but the shitty end of a stick that gets shittier with each passing year in any deal. When it comes down to it Israel can do what the hell it wants regardless of anything anyone except the USA says or does. And the USA will always, possibly after much hand-wringing, support Israel against threats to its existence no matter how feeble or wildly implausible that threat actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/265 "2014-08-11T16:52:04Z")
Shodan, I do not believe there have ever been serious negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The public issues are strictly propaganda on both sides. Any right of return will be to the Palestinian territory, but it is a negotiating point. Israel cannot return to the 1967 borders, but that too is a negotiating point. Israel will maintain a military presence in Palestine, but without authority over Palestinian civilians. Israel does not have a self-defense problem. It is the 5th strongest military power in the world. Realistically, Israel has two major problems: population and water. The association between Israel and the US appears to be productive for both parties. However the US can exist, and provide a secure homeland for Jews, without Israel. Israel cannot do the same without US support. I’m sure US backchannels are working overtime to resolve the situation Gaza has hit bottom. Now is the time for a resolution. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/266 "2014-08-11T17:13:21Z")
Dear Critics, I might’ve confused the Lebanese Army with Hezbollah. Sorry about that. Now, you are talking about being unilateral, siding with Israel and being against Arabs. Very well, lets see the facts. Jews, had to immigrate from Europe and Arabs were so hateful against them that they didn’t want to give them land. The Palestinians were used as propaganda. They were never accepted to other countries and they were treated as the gypsies of the Arab world. Today, still most Arab countries don’t allow them and of the ones who do allow them to seek refuge in their countries never let them be assimilated into their own communities except in Jordan! But after Jews came, “Oh my dear brothers, PALESTINIANS SHALL LIBERATE” and all that bullshits starts to spark violence. Propaganda Machine. If Arabs weren’t arrogant Palestinians would already have their land, both states would’ve been recognised (if Arabs weren’t so hateful) and the only problem would be Jerusalem, which I don’t support either Israelis or Palestinians or the UN. I think it should be eligible for access to people from Palestine and Israel but not anyone else (so not completely International). ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/267 "2014-08-11T17:16:36Z")
There are no good guys, but they do need a resolution to the conflict. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/268 "2014-08-11T17:19:33Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > There are no good guys, but they do need a resolution to the conflict. It’s facile to say “there are no good guys”. There are no good guys anywhere. You can always find something “bad”. But - there are better “guys” and worse “guys”. And there is absolutely no doubt which is better and which is worse in the Israel vs Hamas conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/269 "2014-08-11T17:30:10Z")
I hope by worse you are referring to the terrorist organisation Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/270 "2014-08-11T17:37:37Z")
> [@Knowledgable](#): > > I hope by worse you are referring to the terrorist organisation Hamas. As I said, it’s obvious. Doesn’t even need to be said. Even the moron Westerners protesting against Israel in the streets know it. Hell, even the not-completely-brainwashed Arabs know it, as evidenced by the tacit support of Israeli actions by most Arab states. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/271 "2014-08-11T18:02:07Z")
Israel is obviously a successful society - econimically and militarily. That does not make it right, or does it? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/272 "2014-08-11T18:09:36Z")
Dear Crane, Of course it does not make it right, because not success itself per se, but the way to success the ethics of becoming successful should be considered. If Israel just oppresses the Palestinians to become successful than, this is not a success, although it is very hard to say Israel causes any problems, or at least starts any violence, not considering retaliations because they are necessary to keep the order. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/273 "2014-08-11T18:11:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel is obviously a successful society - econimically and militarily. > > That does not make it right, or does it? The question is _why_ it is a successful society - economically and militarily. And the answer is, it’s because its efforts and resources are geared towards improving the lives of its citizens. As opposed to all efforts and resources of Hamas being geared towards trying to kill as many Jews as possible. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/274 "2014-08-11T18:41:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s certainly quite impressive that Hezbollah was fighting Israel almost 20 years before it came into existence. Well, you can’t say he isn’t knowledgable (sic). :smack: > [@Terr](#): > > It’s facile to say “there are no good guys”. There are no good guys anywhere. You can always find something “bad”. But - there are better “guys” and worse “guys”. And there is absolutely no doubt which is better and which is worse in the Israel vs Hamas conflict. Nitpick: The quote marks should be on “better” and “worse”. You wouldn’t want to be ridiculed for not having flawless non-native language abilities, would you? 😉 Anyway, it’s still a facile argument. Everyone thinks they’re the “better” guys. Everyone thinks they’re “right”. And like you, they rationalize their beliefs and actions by pointing out the other guy’s beliefs and actions. If we could tabulate all the actions of both sides and came up with hard numbers to prove who was “better” or “worse” on that basis, would it solve the problem? If not, then what is the point, other than to help some people get to sleep at night? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/275 "2014-08-11T18:43:47Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Shodan, > > I do not believe there have ever been serious negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The public issues are strictly propaganda on both sides. In what sense were the Camp David proposals to which I have already linked not a serious negotiation offer by the Israelis? > [@](#): > > Any right of return will be to the Palestinian territory, but it is a negotiating point. Again, please cite an instance of the Palestinians agreeing to compromise on the subject of the right to return. If it is a negotiating point, then there should be some example of the Palestinians negotiating it. And as mentioned, ‘give me what I want before I will negotiate’ is not negotiation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/276 "2014-08-11T19:46:08Z")
Neither side has engaged in serious negotiations. Camp David is an example. Israel essentially said, ‘it’s the best deal you are going to get’. The Israeli stance has always been that the opposition must concede their position before Israel will negotiate. That is all history. It’s time to resolve the situation. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/277 "2014-08-11T20:00:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Neither side has engaged in serious negotiations. > > Camp David is an example. Israel essentially said, ‘it’s the best deal you are going to get’. > > The Israeli stance has always been that the opposition must concede their position before Israel will negotiate. That is a jaw-droppingly ignorant statement since it was made clear that further concession could be made down road. This has been made clear not just by the Israelis but by Prince Bandar and Bill Clinton. Have you actually read anything on this subject or are you just using your general perceptions of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/278 "2014-08-11T20:25:56Z")
**There are 5 essential subjects Israeli Government and Palestinians are to agree on:** 1 of them I do not remember. 1. Security in bordering regions with Gaza and West Bank, 2. Israeli settlements in West Bank, 3. East Jerusalem, 4. Right of Return. For 2: I would say Hamas needs to step down, Fatah should govern the region and **decrease the military presence** in the region, also **co-ordinating with the Israeli government** to destroy any **terrorist networks in Gaza** , which spreads fear, hatred, violence and causes deaths of hundreds. _This would decrease the embargo imposed on Gaza by at least 50% I dare say._ For 3: Israeli government increased the **settlement programme** on the **Occupied Territories of the West Bank** when the Unity Government got formed. So again Hamas should be eradicated and military and political presence of it should be destroyed. Adding to that Israeli government should decrease, if not stop its settlement programme, which is **illegal**. For 4: I think both Israelis and Palestinians should be able to travel to Jerusalem freely. People from other nations should get visas or necessary permits. UN Troops, Israeli Troops and Palestinian Troops should protect Jerusalem **on the same side**. For 5: Well, it is essential that the **Jew to Arab** ratio is kept at a level that will satisfy Israel, the only **Jewish State** on our world. I know this seems a little evil or even selfish but, maybe because _I am a Jew_, I think Palestinians should not be given the right to enter, live and work in Israel as if they are **naturalised citizens**. There are 5 million Palestinians who would benefit from this and this number is enough to put Israel’s Jewish identity to danger. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/279 "2014-08-11T20:46:04Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Neither side has engaged in serious negotiations. > > Camp David is an example. Israel essentially said, ‘it’s the best deal you are going to get’. > > The Israeli stance has always been that the opposition must concede their position before Israel will negotiate. > > That is all history. It’s time to resolve the situation. > > Crane If what the Israelis have done so far doesn’t count as “serious negotiation”, then there is no such thing as serious negotiation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/280 "2014-08-11T21:08:09Z")
Knowledgable, 1. The unity government would have accomplished this if Israel had given it’s support. It may yet happen as a result of the current negotiations. 2. Israel must withdraw all government settlements from the West Bank. Settlements that were legally purchased and funded by the residents may remain. 3. That will be a problem. Cross border admissions will have to be by passport. 4. Now that’s an interesting problem. Should there also not be any Jews in Palestine? Since I live in the American Southwest, I find this difficult to understand. We have had Arab, Jew, Native American and Christian folks intermingled here for 400 years. How would you maintain the balance? Should non-Jews have full citizenship? How do you count Christians and Secular Humanists? Who is a Jew? The Germans wanted an Arayan Homeland and you see where that went. Other real issues are: The ability to maintain Israeli defense forces on Palestinian territory. Population - Israel is land limited. Water - The water table is under Palestinian territory. Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=15)