# At what level of pain to Hamas/Palestine will Israel achieve military victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632 "2014-08-02T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/341 "2014-08-19T19:39:28Z")
I’d love to see a cite for the supposition that Israel doesn’t have enough munitions stockpiled to continue the fight against Gaza. Does Syria know that the Golan Heights cannot be defended, because Israel doesn’t have any ammunition? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/342 "2014-08-19T19:56:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d love to see a cite for the supposition that Israel doesn’t have enough munitions stockpiled to continue the fight against Gaza. > > Does Syria know that the Golan Heights cannot be defended, because Israel doesn’t have any ammunition? I’m guessing that factoid is nonsense. It isn’t as if Israel lacks a domestic arms industry - it is, in fact, the sixth largest exporter of arms in the world! > **[Israel ranks as the world's sixth largest arms exporter in 2012](https://www.haaretz.com/2013-06-25/ty-article/.premium/israel-ranks-worlds-no-6-arms-exporter/0000017f-e3c0-d7b2-a77f-e3c7adf40000)** > > Israel's weapons sales jumped 74% since 2008, largely thanks to deals with India, according to IHS Jane's; U.S. tops the defense intelligence company's list of arms exporters, with more than $28 billion in defense deals in 2012. It seems that the real story is that the US continued to sell certain arms to Israel during the Gaza war, as it does all the time (and, it should be pointed out, Israel sells arms to the US) - and in this case, those particular arms were sold that came out of old stocks kept in reserve. The press pounced on that as evidence that the US was deliberately “arming” Israel. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/31/us-mideast-gaza-usa-pentagon-idUSKBN0G022120140731](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/31/us-mideast-gaza-usa-pentagon-idUSKBN0G022120140731) ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/343 "2014-08-28T19:49:34Z")
People should really get that it is Hamas’s Propaganda, which results in aggravated Israeli propaganda. As for before Hamas-- it was the PLO Propaganda [Not before Hamas was founded but (pre-1994 or 1993 PLO)]. Blatant. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/344 "2014-09-06T20:05:44Z")
It is obvious that the Israeli incursion has not weakened Gaza’s resolve. The Palestinians are pushing for UN recognition and a 3 year plan for Israel to withdraw to it’s 1967 borders. Netanyahu, on the other hand, is pandering to his base by blatantly appropriating more Palestinian land. The Obama administration does not need this irritation and Netanyahu is not going to give them any help. We can hope that the military and business communities will work together to keep Netanyahu in check. Crane ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/345 "2014-09-06T20:19:41Z")
If the Israeli incursion has not weakened Hamas’ resolve, the only conclusion to make is Hamas wants to die, and wants as many Gazans to die right along side with them. It doesn’t take a mathematician to figure out that if you engage with a force that has one fatality for every 50 fatalities on your side, you STOP engaging such force. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/346 "2014-09-06T21:37:02Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Netanyahu, on the other hand, is pandering to his base by blatantly appropriating more Palestinian land. According to NPR, Israel owned that piece at one time. Why and when did they give it up? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/347 "2014-09-06T23:16:23Z")
Rock, Your conclusion is probably incorrect. Invasion only strengthens resolve. Israel has not given the Gaza Ghetto any reason to give up their fight. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/348 "2014-09-06T23:24:01Z")
carnivore… It’s a complex issue. All land in Israel is owned by the state. Some Palestinian land is owned by Israelis. The issue is not ownership, but sovereignty. Crane ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/349 "2014-09-07T00:12:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > carnivore… > > It’s a complex issue. All land in Israel is owned by the state. Some Palestinian land is owned by Israelis. The issue is not ownership, but sovereignty. > > Crane Thanks, I’ll ask someone who knows. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/350 "2014-09-07T13:10:11Z")
OK - you might start here: [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2FSociety\_%26\_Culture%2Fland.html&ei=rlgMVOCfCI22yATEvIGAAw&usg=AFQjCNEr4kzsFoVdvnbGhbVOBh9aQMr67g](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org%2Fjsource%2FSociety_%26_Culture%2Fland.html&ei=rlgMVOCfCI22yATEvIGAAw&usg=AFQjCNEr4kzsFoVdvnbGhbVOBh9aQMr67g) Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=17)