# At what level of pain to Hamas/Palestine will Israel achieve military victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632 "2014-08-02T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/121 "2014-08-04T03:43:13Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Martin, > > Good points, but the evidence is that Israel does not want a resolution and it does not want to completely destroy the Palestinians in Gaza. > > The strategy appears to be that of a mother cat with a mouse. She keeps the mouse sufficiently alive to focus the attention of her kittens on it’s reactions to her torture. > > Israel is controlled by the most brilliant political and military minds in the world. It’s actions in Gaza are the implementation of a deliberate strategy. Obviously that strategy is not a military victory (destruction of the enemies will and ability to fight). Israel is just torturing the mouse for propaganda purposes. Unfortunately, for this strategy, the mouse eventually dies. > > The best strategy open to the Palestinians is to choose one of the paths of passive resistance. If 100,000 people from Gaza and another 100.000 from the West Bank start crossing the boarder to reclaim Palestinian land, Israel would be powerless to stop them. Israel cannot murder them all. > > Crane It would be tough to recruit the first few hundred or first few thousand in that border crossing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/122 "2014-08-04T03:44:44Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > They’ve wrapped the U.S. Congress, media and President around their little fingers. Someone else has wrapped them around Netanyahu’s finger. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/123 "2014-08-04T04:30:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Someone else has wrapped them around Netanyahu’s finger. Who? And if so why do Netanyahu and Obama have such bad relations? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/124 "2014-08-04T05:08:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > They aren’t throwing rocks, they are firing lethal weapons at Israel. > > The actual analogy is what if I pull out a gun, shoot a cop and he isn’t seriously injured because it was a weak round and it hit him in his vest, and the cop shooting me back and killing me. There is no real difference in the proportionality of the cop’s response to my action. Yes, the result is disproportionate, but you’re basically saying if I have better defenses to your attacks I should have to use a weaker attack to make up for it. > > If not for Iron Dome a lot of Israelis would be dead from all those rockets, it’s not Israel’s fault Hamas can’t stop Israeli guided missiles. I would argue the response from Israel is disproportionate–in that it is less aggressive than the rocket attacks because they are specifically targeted at military targets, and civilians are only hit as collateral damage and that is exacerbated because Hamas _wants_ civilians to die so they launch rockets from civilian buildings. Hamas is directly targeted Israeli civilians. > > So yes, the response is already “disproportionate” in that it is more tame than Hamas’ actions. I don’t get why everyone is so caught up in “proportionality”. War is not and should not be proportional - that would defeat the whole purpose. And there are so many measures for “proportional” that you could never realistically settle on one anyone. Instead - I propose that you should be evaluating the response based on what is “right”, what is “needed” and what will achieve your goals. So - for your case of the policeman - is it “needed” that the officer responds with a shot at all - or are there other ways to arrest the stupid gunman? Or to put it another way, imagine the 16 year old gets hit by his 3 year old brother - what sort of a response should he give? Recognising fully that the 3 year old is neither rational nor in control of his emotions? He can’t “ignore” the beating, but at the same time - beating back will achieve what exactly? Even if he uses exactly the same force. What response will get him the results he needs? Wouldn’t this be a far better area to focus? Same with the current conflict (in my eyes) - what Israel is doing, isn’t working. As they are the ones with far greater power, with far greater resources, with far greater strength to do something different, they are the ones that are under a responsibility to act. And that action should be supported by the international community - cause if we keep doing what we’ve always done, we’ll keep getting what we’ve always got. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/125 "2014-08-04T05:58:06Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > . . . So - for your case of the policeman - is it “needed” that the officer responds with a shot at all - or are there other ways to arrest the stupid gunman? . . . In the specific case of the gunman I mentioned in Los Angeles, no, as he was actively firing at police officers. In other cases, yes, definitely the police often wait suspects out in long standoffs without shots being fired. They tend to prefer this. Safer for everyone. For the purposes of this metaphor, the rocket attacks from Gaza are similar to the gunman firing into the street. But…as we’ve seen with the abortion issue…metaphors don’t have much persuasive power in highly polarized debates like this one. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/126 "2014-08-04T06:16:15Z")
By the way, a good article here: [http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180931/brooks-stephens-get-it-just-right?utm\_source=Facebook&utm\_medium=Post&utm\_content=Brooks%2C+Stephens+Get+it+Just+Right&utm\_campaign=July2014](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180931/brooks-stephens-get-it-just-right?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Post&utm_content=Brooks%2C+Stephens+Get+it+Just+Right&utm_campaign=July2014) Let’s get this one straight. Israel is culpable because (a) it won’t accept a Palestinian government that includes a terrorist organization sworn to the Jewish state’s destruction; (b) it won’t help that organization out of its financial jam; and (c) it won’t ease a quasi-blockade—jointly imposed with Egypt—on a territory whose central economic activity appears to be building rocket factories and pouring imported concrete into terrorist tunnels. ``` This is either bald moral idiocy or thinly veiled bigotry. It mistakes effect for cause, treats self-respect as arrogance and self-defense as aggression, and makes demands of the Jewish state that would be dismissed out of hand anywhere else. To argue the Palestinian side, in this war, is to make the case for barbarism. It is to erase, in the name of humanitarianism, the moral distinctions from which the concept of humanity arises. ``` That’s just common sense. But an insight further on: n 1979, the Arab-Israeli dispute looked like a clash between civilizations, between a Western democracy and Middle Eastern autocracy. Now the Arab-Israeli dispute looks like a piece of a clash within Arab civilization, over its future. I am not fully convinced of this argument. But it is an interesting one. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/127 "2014-08-04T06:44:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Remember when Israel made peace with Egypt? It wasn’t out of love for Egyptians. It was because Egypt represented a REAL threat. They will never make peace with Palestinians until they represent a REAL threat. And when they do, they will either try to destroy them or make peace. Oh please. Anyone familiar with the negotiations between Sadat and Begin would laugh at that. Begin was willing to make peace with Sadat because Sadat went out of his way to make it clear he’d make peace with them and was willing to greet the Israelis with open arms in ways that none of the other Arab leaders were willing to do. Which if any Pakestinian, much less Hamas leaders have been willing to do that. Beyond that, the PLO in the 90s didn’t represent anymore of a threat to Israel than Hamas today, yet Israel was willing to make peace with them. Once again, you really ought to read up on the situation. If you’re genuinely interested as you’ve claimed, I’ll be happy to help out. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/128 "2014-08-04T07:41:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way, a good article here: > > [http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180931/brooks-stephens-get-it-just-right?utm\_source=Facebook&utm\_medium=Post&utm\_content=Brooks%2C+Stephens+Get+it+Just+Right&utm\_campaign=July2014](http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180931/brooks-stephens-get-it-just-right?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Post&utm_content=Brooks%2C+Stephens+Get+it+Just+Right&utm_campaign=July2014) > > Let’s get this one straight. Israel is culpable because (a) it won’t accept a Palestinian government that includes a terrorist organization sworn to the Jewish state’s destruction; (b) it won’t help that organization out of its financial jam; and (c) it won’t ease a quasi-blockade—jointly imposed with Egypt—on a territory whose central economic activity appears to be building rocket factories and pouring imported concrete into terrorist tunnels. > > ``` > This is either bald moral idiocy or thinly veiled bigotry. It mistakes effect for cause, treats self-respect as arrogance and self-defense as aggression, and makes demands of the Jewish state that would be dismissed out of hand anywhere else. To argue the Palestinian side, in this war, is to make the case for barbarism. It is to erase, in the name of humanitarianism, the moral distinctions from which the concept of humanity arises. > > ``` > > That’s just common sense. But an insight further on: > n 1979, the Arab-Israeli dispute looked like a clash between civilizations, between a Western democracy and Middle Eastern autocracy. Now the Arab-Israeli dispute looks like a piece of a clash within Arab civilization, over its future. > I am not fully convinced of this argument. But it is an interesting one. And of course TheTablet Mag is neutral on the matter! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/129 "2014-08-04T07:44:50Z")
Just War [https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/justwar.htm](https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/justwar.htm) A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate. A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient–see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with “right” intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable. The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought. The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered. The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/130 "2014-08-04T08:09:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And of course TheTablet Mag is neutral on the matter! Is there a reason it should be distrusted? It’s a well-regarded journalistic publication pit out by people who aren’t citizens of Israel or it’s declared enemies? Why should we be opposed to using it as a source. I’ll assume you agree with me that the Fox News anchor who suggested that Reza Aslan shouldn’t be trusted as an academic source on Jesus of Nazareth because he was a Muslim, was making an outrageous, borderline bigoted claim. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/131 "2014-08-04T09:01:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > One problem here is that Hamas is not behaving rationally. They are pursuing a course that is harmful to themselves. Most nations, historically, when in a position that is militarily untenable, simply cease fighting. Not really. The British occupied plenty of places for centuries and faced off-and-on rebellion the whole time. And historically, not giving up has been much more likely to result in an oppressed faction getting at least something of what they want than submitting has. There’s no reason to think that Israel will leave them be if they stop firing rockets or otherwise acting out. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The aim of war is to win it, and that happens by one side being stronger than the other. Not really; the weaker side wins wars all the time if it’s determined enough and the strong side isn’t willing to make enough sacrifices or commit genocide. American didn’t lose Vietnam ad Iraq because it was weak, but because the local people wouldn’t submit to us and we weren’t willing to keep pouring resources into an unending conflict indefinitely. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is more intractable since both sides are in their homeland, so they can’t just give up and leave like we did. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’m one who thinks both sides have valid things they “deserve”, but Israel is by far the most powerful. As the most powerful, they actually have the right to act the most unreasonably in negotiations. That makes no sense; power has nothing to do with right or wrong. > [@Crane](#): > > Good point. > > The question is: what’s the end game? Most likely IMHO they massacre the Palestinians and complete the process of turning into the kind of people who used to persecute _them._ ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/132 "2014-08-04T14:58:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And of course TheTablet Mag is neutral on the matter! Bzzzzzt - wrong. The two excerpts - one is from WSJ and the other is from NYT. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/133 "2014-08-04T18:27:11Z")
[QUOTE=Trinopus] . . . Most nations, historically, when in a position that is militarily untenable, simply cease fighting . . . [/quote] > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not really. The British occupied plenty of places for centuries and faced off-and-on rebellion the whole time. . . . But for most of that time, the British were winning. There were setbacks, like the Indian Mutiny or the Mahdi at Khartoum, but in most cases, the British popped right back and won the war. I’m thinking of cases like Germany and Japan in 1945, or the Confederate States of America in 1865. They couldn’t win any more battles. There was no longer any military functionality. So they surrendered. Hamas should surrender; they can’t accomplish anything the way they’re behaving now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/134 "2014-08-04T18:35:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not 200. And those people are about half civilian, maybe less. The accurate accounting is coming. From whom? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/135 "2014-08-04T18:36:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From whom? From the IDF. Which, in the past, turned out to be the only accurate source for the number of dead Hamas combatants. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/136 "2014-08-04T19:14:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Just War > > [https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/justwar.htm](https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/justwar.htm) > > A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. > A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate. > A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient–see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with “right” intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury. > > A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable. > > The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought. > > The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered. > > The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target. I’m a little confused by this post. You’ve indicated in the past that you don’t support Israel. But every one of the items you’ve just listed would indicate that Palestine is wrong and Israel is fighting a just war. > [@](#): > > A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. Hamas began firing rockets into Israel. This was clearly a violent option when non-violent options were available. > [@](#): > > A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate. Hamas is not recognized as a legitimate government even by the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient–see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with “right” intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury. Israel fought back after it was attacked by rockets. Clearly this was self-defense against an armed attack and therefore is a just cause. > [@](#): > > A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable. It’s impossible to imagine Hamas is going to defeat Israel. You, along with other people, have pointed out how “disproportionate” Israel’s response has been. So how can you call the Hamas cause anything other than hopeless? It seems to have been designed to provoke Israel into inflicting Palestinian casualties. > [@](#): > > The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought. I haven’t heard anyone saying they see peace on the horizon. > [@](#): > > The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered. Again, this condemns Hamas for launching all those rockets when it did not have a just cause to do so. > [@](#): > > The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target. Rockets. Being fired at random. And Hamas seems to be trying to maximize the civilian casualties among its own population. So not only are they directly targeting Israeli civilians but they’re also indirectly targeting Palestinian civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/137 "2014-08-04T21:17:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If you’re genuinely interested as you’ve claimed, I’ll be happy to help out. If you intend to give me a reading list then, no thank you. If you wanted to recommend one reasonably brief book that is fairly unbiased, I will read it; but the last time you suggested something like 3 or 4 books that according to Amazon had a combined page count over 1000 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/138 "2014-08-04T21:24:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That makes no sense; power has nothing to do with right or wrong. Obviously you haven’t heard the phrase “might makes right” > [@](#): > > Most likely IMHO they massacre the Palestinians and complete the process of turning into the kind of people who used to persecute _them._ I think that there are enough Israelis that are uncomfortable enough with how close they are getting to being an apartheid state that they will never get to the point of making bulk purchases of Zyklon B ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/139 "2014-08-04T22:21:53Z")
Israel invaded Gaza to eliminate the will and ability of Hamas to fire rockets Today Hamas launched 60+ rockets - Israel failed to reach it’s goal Proportionality requires that civilian casualties be in proportion to the strategic value of the operation that endangers them Israel has killed hundreds of civilians pursuing a futile goal The IDF has been embarrassed because they did not know about the smugglers tunnels The IDF has been embarrassed by their inability to destroy Hamas The IDF has been shamed by the desperation and lack of discipline that resulted in so many civilian deaths Hamas has won this round So, on topic, what else can Israel do? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/140 "2014-08-05T00:02:57Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel invaded Gaza to eliminate the will and ability of Hamas to fire rockets > > Today Hamas launched 60+ rockets - Israel failed to reach it’s goal > > Proportionality requires that civilian casualties be in proportion to the strategic value of the operation that endangers them > > Israel has killed hundreds of civilians pursuing a futile goal > > The IDF has been embarrassed because they did not know about the smugglers tunnels > > The IDF has been embarrassed by their inability to destroy Hamas > > The IDF has been shamed by the desperation and lack of discipline that resulted in so many civilian deaths > > Hamas has won this round > So, on topic, what else can Israel do? > > Crane Der Trihs seems to be suggesting that genocide (or something like it) might be next. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=8)