# At what level of pain to Hamas/Palestine will Israel achieve military victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632 "2014-08-02T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/141 "2014-08-05T00:46:59Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Hamas has won this round > So, on topic, what else can Israel do? > > Crane Keep blowing up rockets until they kill everyone in Hamas. Oh, wait, they can’t kill them all, because the leaders are hanging out in Kattar. Plant ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/142 "2014-08-05T03:05:33Z")
Slow genocide does seem to be the strategy. The end game is to maintain the Palestinians in a state of constant, desperate revolt, so Israel is justified in taking their land and water and minerals until nothing is left but Greater Israel. It’s not a matter of how much will it take. It’s a matter of how much the mouse can take without being killed. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/143 "2014-08-05T03:11:34Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Slow genocide does seem to be the strategy. > > The end game is to maintain the Palestinians in a state of constant, desperate revolt, so Israel is justified in taking their land and water and minerals until nothing is left but Greater Israel. > > It’s not a matter of how much will it take. It’s a matter of how much the mouse can take without being killed. Here is a strategy for Palestinians to thwart the evil Israelis: stop killing them. Stop the rockets. Stop blowing up buses and pizzerias. Stop building tunnels, infiltrating and shooting Israelis. Stop the antisemitic propaganda in your schools. Teach your kids Hebrew like Israelis are teaching their kids Arabic. Say: look at us, we’re peaceful, we don’t do anything to you, why are you attacking us? Or maybe that won’t “work” because the evil, conniving Israelis will refuse to attack? Oh damn, the whole strategy just goes to pieces. Or does it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/144 "2014-08-05T03:17:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here is a strategy for Palestinians to thwart the evil Israelis: stop killing them. Stop the rockets. Stop blowing up buses and pizzerias. Stop building tunnels, infiltrating and shooting Israelis. Stop the antisemitic propaganda in your schools. Teach your kids Hebrew like Israelis are teaching their kids Arabic. Say: look at us, we’re peaceful, we don’t do anything to you, why are you attacking us? > > Or maybe that won’t “work” because the evil, conniving Israelis will refuse to attack? Oh damn, the whole strategy just goes to pieces. Or does it? Actually, most Palestinians in the Occupied territories speak Hebrew. I’d be willing to bet vastly more speak Hebrew than Israelis Jews speak Arabic. For that matter, David Grossman noted this fact about the Palestinians in the territories and remarked that probably more Palestinians spoke Hebrew than diaspora Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/145 "2014-08-05T03:29:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, most Palestinians in the Occupied territories speak Hebrew. I’d be willing to bet vastly more speak Hebrew than Israelis Jews speak Arabic. Arabic is taught in every Israeli school. Hebrew isn’t taught, AFAIU, in any Palestinian school (correct me if I’m wrong). I am not talking about whether they can speak it. Yes, most can. But it is symbolism. Just like Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel. Can you imagine Hebrew being one of the official languages of future “Palestine” as envisioned today? As I said in my post, it is all symbolic. Stop killing Jews. Stop inciting hate in your schools and on your television programs including kiddie shows. Stop naming your schools and soccer stadiums after suicide bombers who blew up pizzerias and weddings. Accept that Jews will be able to live among you when/if you’re independent like Arabs live among Jews in Israel. Show Israelis, for a few years (I really think 10 would be enough) that you CAN actually be a peaceful neighbor. That will definitely stop that supposed evil “slow genocide” tactic that Crane is talking about. Thwart the evil Israelis. Stop them in their tracks. And it will only take 10 years. 60 years (around 100 years if you start counting from before the state) of “armed resistance” so far just turned your life to shit and your living areas to cesspools. I would think trying something different would be fairly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/146 "2014-08-05T13:50:55Z")
Terr, No argument there. One ray of hope is that Israel is now engaged in the peace negotiations. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/147 "2014-08-05T13:57:06Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Slow genocide does seem to be the strategy. > > Crane I have a question for you. Who has killed and wounded more Palestinians in war and massacre in the last fifty years - Israel, or other Arabs and Arab states? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/148 "2014-08-05T14:07:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Arabic is taught in every Israeli school. Hebrew isn’t taught, AFAIU, in any Palestinian school (correct me if I’m wrong). I am not talking about whether they can speak it. Yes, most can. But it is symbolism. Just like Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel. Can you imagine Hebrew being one of the official languages of future “Palestine” as envisioned today? > > As I said in my post, it is all symbolic. Stop killing Jews. Stop inciting hate in your schools and on your television programs including kiddie shows. Stop naming your schools and soccer stadiums after suicide bombers who blew up pizzerias and weddings. Accept that Jews will be able to live among you when/if you’re independent like Arabs live among Jews in Israel. Show Israelis, for a few years (I really think 10 would be enough) that you CAN actually be a peaceful neighbor. > > That will definitely stop that supposed evil “slow genocide” tactic that Crane is talking about. Thwart the evil Israelis. Stop them in their tracks. And it will only take 10 years. 60 years (around 100 years if you start counting from before the state) of “armed resistance” so far just turned your life to shit and your living areas to cesspools. I would think trying something different would be fairly obvious. While this would be a wonderful thing, it seems highly unlikely – even if 99% of Palestinians started to behave this way, it would only take 1% or less refusing to join in the peace to blow the whole thing up. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/149 "2014-08-05T14:27:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Remember when Israel made peace with Egypt? It wasn’t out of love for Egyptians. It was because Egypt represented a REAL threat. They will never make peace with Palestinians until they represent a REAL threat. And when they do, they will either try to destroy them or make peace. You’ve postulated Israel’s motivation for making peace with Egypt; what do you postulate was Egypt’s motivation for making peace with Israel? Was it out of love for Israelis? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/150 "2014-08-05T14:33:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > While this would be a wonderful thing, it seems highly unlikely – even if 99% of Palestinians started to behave this way, it would only take 1% or less refusing to join in the peace to blow the whole thing up. Not if the 99% policed the 1%. Palestinians KNOW who the 1% are. Better than the Israelis do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/151 "2014-08-05T14:37:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not if the 99% policed the 1%. Palestinians KNOW who the 1% are. Better than the Israelis do. This sounds a lot easier said than done, considering how incompetent most Palestinian and Gaza leadership seems to be. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/152 "2014-08-05T15:21:06Z")
Malthus, I do not know and I do not see the relevance. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/153 "2014-08-05T15:25:44Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel invaded Gaza to eliminate the will and ability of Hamas to fire rockets > > Today Hamas launched 60+ rockets - Israel failed to reach it’s goal > > Proportionality requires that civilian casualties be in proportion to the strategic value of the operation that endangers them > > Israel has killed hundreds of civilians pursuing a futile goal > > The IDF has been embarrassed because they did not know about the smugglers tunnels > > The IDF has been embarrassed by their inability to destroy Hamas > > The IDF has been shamed by the desperation and lack of discipline that resulted in so many civilian deaths > > Hamas has won this round > So, on topic, what else can Israel do? > > Crane Huh? Almost none of this is correct. 1. Israel has known about the tunnels all along. The goal of the land invasion was to destroy them - tunnels which took 5 years to build were all wrecked in a matter of days. 2. It was never Israel’s goal to destroy Hamas or to eliminate Hamas’ ability to fire rockets. Israel well knew in advance that these goals were not achievable by a mere incursion. Rather, the goal was to weaken Hamas by wrecking the infrastructure Hamas has set up, and killing lots of them - a goal allegedly largely achieved. 3. Israel’s other goal was to forge a closer relationship with Egypt, and this goal too was apparently achieved. 4. Israel has accepted a three-day ceasefire suggested by Egypt. This apparently on the same terms as has been suggested repeatedly over the past few days - and rejected by Hamas, who held out for some concessions. Hamas got NO concessions. The Israelis simply came in, destroyed their stuff with relative impunity, arranged a ceasefire through Egypt, and left. Not sure how any of this spins into a Hamas “victory”. They are now more isolated than ever before, their stuff has been trashed (along with large parts of Gaza). Certainly, the Israelis have taken a PR hit, with the dead civilians smashed up in the ruins - but then, the Israelis largely don’t care much about world PR, which has had little effect on EITHER side. It is also true that the goal of a lasting peace in Gaza has not been advanced - but again, this wasn’t an Israeli goal; the Israelis have apparently come to the conclusion that a lasting peace isn’t possible with Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/154 "2014-08-05T15:32:49Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Malthus, > > I do not know and I do not see the relevance. > > Crane The relevance is to whether or not a “slow genocide” is part of the Israeli plan on the one hand - or whether the ME is simply a dangerous place with lots of wars on the other, and Israel is not really different from any of its neighbours in this respect. The correct answer is that, while casualty figures are somewhat conjectural, more Palestinians have been killed by other Arabs than by Israelis - the two main events being the wars in Lebanon and “Black September” in Jordan. I would also point out that if the Israelis were planning on a “slow genocide”, they must be really bad at math - because the actual number of Palestinians is increasing at a rate that far outstrips the number of causualties the Israeli have been inflicting. > **[Demographics of the State of Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories)** > > Demographic features of the population of the area commonly described as the Palestinian territories includes information on ethnicity, education level, health of the populace, economic status, religious affiliations and other aspects of that population. > According to a commonly used definition as relating to an application of the 1949 Armistice Agreement green line, the Palestinian territories have contributory parts of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem). > The Palesti... ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/155 "2014-08-05T16:44:01Z")
Malthus, Thanks for the interesting perspective. The tunnels were used for smuggling, not attacks. Many were there in 2012, but the IDF did not touch them then. The tunnels could have been detected and destroyed from the Israeli side. One IDF representative said “It’s a complex issue”. You bet it is! Because smuggling is a big money maker for somebody in power. Successful military action always has the goal of destroying the enemies will and ability to conduct war. This improves the bargaining position of the aggressor. The IDF did not destroy Hamas and Israel has been drawn to the negotiating table. Hamas has won. BTW: you can bet there is some high level IDF butt being chewed as we speak (write). Crane ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/156 "2014-08-05T16:47:58Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The tunnels were used for smuggling, not attacks. Many were there in 2012, but the IDF did not touch them then. No. The ones on the Egyptian border are the smuggling tunnels. The ones on Israeli side are not used for smuggling. To suggest they are is absurd. There is no way to use them to smuggle anything - the first/second time they are used, they will be detected and blown up. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/157 "2014-08-05T17:16:58Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Malthus, > > Thanks for the interesting perspective. > > The tunnels were used for smuggling, not attacks. Many were there in 2012, but the IDF did not touch them then. The tunnels could have been detected and destroyed from the Israeli side. One IDF representative said “It’s a complex issue”. You bet it is! Because smuggling is a big money maker for somebody in power. Nope. You are thinking about a different border - the one with Egypt. > [@](#): > > Successful military action always has the goal of destroying the enemies will and ability to conduct war. This improves the bargaining position of the aggressor. > > The IDF did not destroy Hamas and Israel has been drawn to the negotiating table. Hamas has won. What “negotiationing table”? Israel declared a ceasefire and pulled out. There were no “negotiations”. Those who think that this conflict can be permanently solved by an Israeli invasion have not been paying attention. Certainly, there is no assumption on the Israeli side that these were its aims. The Israelis sometimes (and somewhat callously) refer to such operations as “mowing the grass” - that is, periodically going in and degrading Hamas’ ability to wage war, by killing a bunch of them and blowing up their stuff. [Mowing the grass in Gaza - The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Mowing-the-grass-in-Gaza-368516#)! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/158 "2014-08-05T18:04:55Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ykERkTJUIIU/maxresdefault.jpg "Segments from a Palestenian Children's Program - קטעים מתוך תכנית ילדים פלסטינית") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykERkTJUIIU) Some Hamas TV children programs. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/159 "2014-08-05T19:23:02Z")
I would appreciate it if any of the Arabic speaking Dopers would comment on the English subtitles. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632/160 "2014-08-05T19:50:38Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > You’ve postulated Israel’s motivation for making peace with Egypt; what do you postulate was Egypt’s motivation for making peace with Israel? Was it out of love for Israelis? Didn’t Israel leave the Sanai? when did foreign aid from teh US ramp up in Egypt? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-level-of-pain-to-hamas-palestine-will-israel-achieve-military-victory/694632.md?page=9)