If someone is trying to kill you they don’t get a pass for being bad at it.
The rockets aren’t being shot thru tunnels are they? If Israel decided to leave the poor embattled folks locked in the ghetto alone things might cool down.
Many factions in Israel and Palestine profit from the conflict and will disrupt attempts at peace.
Our discussion on this thread is the level of retaliation by Israel that will stop the resistance. The answer is obvious. Israel cannot apply sufficient force to stop the retaliation.
Crane
Terr,
Thanks:
No the response would not be proportional because the southern area of Israel is agricultural. The northern area of Gaza ia urban.
Crane
I have to say, I’m genuinely surprised by the borderline racism of harping on the fact “no Jews” were killed by the Hamas rockets, just a Thai guest worker and an Arab Israeli citizen.
Crane is your attitude that Israel shouldn’t be concerned about the killing of the 20 percent of its citizenry that’s Arab?
I’m pretty sure that’s not what you mean, but combined with your forceful proclamations about Bibi Netanyahu and Avigidor Lieberman being amongst the most brilliant political minds in the world you come across like you’re doing a parody of some Betar youth leader.
So then your answer is that Israel should not be allowed to use any retaliation at all?
I placed it in the context of Israeli propaganda about a Jewish Homeland.
Crane
Ibn,
“Not allowed to…” is not the issue. The question is what level will stop the resistance. There isn’t one. The only solution available is political.
Crane
Is Hamas only sending rockets into the “agricultural area”? Or only into the “southern area of Israel”?
Obviously both.
Crane
Wait, so you’re not aware that Hamas is sending rockets to Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Haifa and Jerusalem?
A few long range rockets have been launched and they do present a potential danger.
For that reason Israel should have engaged in productive talks with the unity government of Palestine.
Crane
There are some rhetorical difficulties here.
Perhaps true, perhaps not, but that’s the nature of war. War is sometimes waged to deter aggression, if not to stop it. Reducing the opponent’s ability to make war is a legitimate strategic aim.
Another strategic goal, although an unpleasant one (perilously close to terrorism) is to punish the enemy so much that they willingly negotiate for a political solution.
One problem here is that Hamas is not behaving rationally. They are pursuing a course that is harmful to themselves. Most nations, historically, when in a position that is militarily untenable, simply cease fighting.
I see. May I ask, do you know how many of those rockets have been launched? That is, what’s “a few”? Is it less than 10? More than 100? 200? 1000?
And - you think that the only “proportionate response” to rockets aimed at your civilians is “productive talks”?
Thank you. Dismissed.
Trinopus,
Good points.
The normal strategic goal of military action is to destroy the enemies ability and willingness to fight. Israel has totally failed to do that in the Palestinian conflict.
The Palestinians are willing to work out a political solution, Israel is not.
Neither side is behaving rationally. Hamas will continue firing rockets and Israel will continue it’s illegal blockade. The people of Gaza cannot stop fighting. If Israel does not lift the blockade the area will be uninhabitable within a few years.
The problem is that Israel may have gone too far to allow a political solution. Such a solution requires sovereignty for the Palestinians - control of borders and air space, control of water and mineral rights, UN membership, freedom of movement through passport issuance and control of their economy. They have nothing to trade - Israel has taken it all. It’s not a negotiation - it’s a matter of working out a solution.
The alternative is an apartheid government that imposes ghettos like Gaza.
Crane
Terr,
You ignore the blockade and total Israeli control of quality of life in Gaza.
Would you accept those conditions without a response?
Crane
Well, 3200 unguided rockets would almost certainly have done fewer casualties than have currently happened. For true proportionality, you’d need to factor in population density.
Wrong. 3200 unguided rockets into Gaza would have caused at least 10,000 (I think actually more) dead, and based on Gaza demographics, it would be 75% women and children.
So - when the blockade was much lighter and quality of life in Gaza was higher - there were no attacks on Israel?
Israel will only achieve military “victory” over the Palestinians through complete genocide or through complete enslavement of them. Keeping an entire people half-enslaved, continually oppressed and humiliated, with further bits of land constantly being stolen from them, as the Palestinians are at the moment, can only result in ongoing conflict. There have never been human being anywhere, at any time in history, who have been prepared to live under such conditions without fighting back, hopeless as the fight might seem.