At what point am I responsible for the behavior of groups I join?

Great Debates
101

Oh, I do, I do, I also atttend anti-world bank demoinstrations, including the big one in Washington, D.C. a few years ago.

Yes, he did. Assuming, that is, as most jews and christians do, that the words directly quoted from god in the torah are gods exact words. You can’t get much clear then, “THESE SHALL BE A COMANDMENT FOREVER.” or words to those effects.

Anyone who claims that christians don’t have to keep kosher, not wear poly-cotton blends, etc. saws he did.

Oh shut UP! Since people believe in the golden rule, they are saying Zebuchadzer’s laws still apply, since the golden rule is an encapsulation of his laws.

What non-sense. He was saying the laws should be ignored to save a life, which the rabbis already did at the time. (Cite: all those boring books I had to study for my bar mitzva.)

Well, it matters because it was the subject of the OP and it has been addresed by me, multiple times, so there you have it jsgoddess, both an atheist and a christian agree.

Hoooh, boy, I know you don’t mean it that way, but that sure sounds insulting to jews.

P.S. I believe that religion is a great force for evil in the world, which is not to see I don’t see how important it is to otherwise rational people who have posted here. However, I imagine that if religion was a much weaker force in the world, and had not affected much of history, people who get things out of religion that they can’t get anywhere else, would get such things as caring, listening and acceptance from society at large. It’s just a theory, though.

102

What do Jews think of the New Testament?

103

I’ve got a point of evidence against your theory. For me, there was quite literally nothing else. I’ve told my story here often enough, about how when I confessed to a suicide attempt in Social Studies class my junior year, nothing was done and my situation only got worse, and no, my family didn’t help, either. They yelled at me for drawing attention to myself.

I also acknowledge there are some very obnoxious, exclusionist, arrogant people, not only within Christianity but within other religions as well. A friend of mine’s marriage was destroyed by his Wiccan coven. Religion is capable of incredible evil. I admit that and, when it’s my religion, I fight it as hard as I can. I have to be careful when it’s someone else’s religion, though, because of the evil done and the intolerance shown by Christianity. It can also do great good. I know. I owe my life and sanity to a small church who wasn’t even thinking about what they were doing as anything extraordinary; it’s simply what they thought they were supposed to do.

CJ

104

Well, when I said that, I meant that the Old Testament is simply the jew’s holy book, the torah, with the books put out of order, and a few words mistranslated on purpose. That in mind, what the jews believe is that the torah is a holy book, and that the NT, isn’t. It is simply a book of fiction made up about some guy, by people, not in any way inspired by god. Although I feel that way about the torah and the new testament, I’m sure you can see how calling it a buncha’ history, and just not import save for the fact that it leads into the real important stuff can be insulting.

Re:Siege
::pinches bridge of nose, to deal with a headache.::
My theory was not about current afairs of the world today, but about an abstract concept of how things coulda’ been. Look, Siege, I am not saying that religious people did not save you, I am just saying…Well, I already said it, and when talking about something so individual as the benefit a person reaps from religion, as opposed to the general OP we already resolved, all I can say is, I’m glad religion was able to be of help to you.

105

Like Scott Plaid, I’m glad your faith is working for you. However, I suspect that the hard time you had as a young person could have been remedied by anyone who would have taken the time to recognize the person you are and nurture your talents. And when I speak of “the church”, I am almost never referring to yours. From what I hear on the boards, they are as forward thinking as a church can be. :wink: And if it helps you to fill a void, hey…more power to you/it/them.

I believe religion provides a means (though certainly not the only one) for people to organize their efforts, and on a small scale, I believe it can bring out the best in some people. However, I stand by my observation that all the good and all the bad (including the creation of god) that has happened on this planet (and beyond) has happened because of man.

106

Jesus did not come to abolish the Ten Commandments, but rather the rules for salvation, changing it from a works-based model to a faith-based model. I shouldn’t have said “commandments” in my earlier point, because that muddied the waters.

As I said earlier, Christians believe Jesus came to abolish the old covenant under which those rules apply. The rules you’re quoting are Levitical, rather than a part of the Ten Commandments. I don’t see anything in Leviticus that says those rules for daily living are to be considered forever applicable.

If you can show me how “Love God with all your heart and all your soul” is included in the Golden Rule, I’ll agree with you. That was the first Law Jesus said we should follow.

Nope. Read Matthew 12:1-13. In these verses, Jesus defends his disciples who were picking grain on the Sabbath because they were hungry. No one was in life-threatening danger then. He also heals a man with a withered hand. Again, no threat to life.

It’s a difference in religions. I could consider it insulting that you (and Jews) think the New Testament is a work of fiction, but what’s the point in rehashing that millenia-old debate? I learned after the Pope’s death that he had said Jews have their own covenant with God, and were not condemned to Hell for not believing in Jesus. I have a similar theory myself, but I didn’t realize the Pope had officially stated that.

107

Passing over the “creation of god” statement, I think you’re creating a tautalogical argument. “Good” and “bad” are moral concepts. Man is the only creature concerned with moral concepts, so naturally everything good and bad has happened because of man.

108

Well, I suppose that a “Do unto God as you would have Him do unto you” application is not totally bizarre, although it does create some problems from a Creator/creature or Deity/worshipper viewpoint. :slight_smile:

I’m rather surprised that anybody would think otherwise. God said, in essence, “Keep the Law perfectly, and you’re in,” and He doesn’t go back on His word (allowing for the metaphorical uses in Scripture of Him “repenting of” a harsh judgment, which I understand to be anthropomorphic personification of His tempering justice with mercy).

The problem, of course, as Paul pointed out to anyone who would hold still to listen to it (or didn’t run away fast enough! ;)) is that it’s impossible to keep the Law perfectly. Hence the entire Yom Kippur ritual.

109

Hoooh, boy, I know you don’t mean it that way, but that sure sounds insulting to Christians.

110

Actually, I did mean it that way. :slight_smile: However, I just thought you should know that jews don’t use the n.t. in any way, shape or form. Now, I believe all this “new covenant” stuff is a buch of junk… in a trunk. However, unless you want to discuss it here, it’s already been debated elsewhere.

111

Actually, morality, although created by man, is the basis for all religion. The problem with religion is that they think they can prescribe morals for all to follow, when in reality, it can only be created by each person for each person themselves.

112

So you can be intentionally insulting to Christians, but a Christian shouldn’t unintentionally insult the Jewish faith?

Polycarp: Paul was a pistol, huh?

I’ve heard various people of different Christian faiths say they believe Jews were doomed to Hell unless they converted to Christianity. I personally didn’t believe that, but I didn’t realize the Pope had made a proclamation stating such.

Kalhoun: Don’t forget that many of our society’s laws are morally based. While each person can create their own moral code, large chunks of it have to conform to society’s morals, or they’ll be in a peck of trouble.

113

Of course I knew they didn’t. I just wanted to point out a bit of hypocrisy in your earlier chastising of Sauron, who dared to regard the OT in a different manner than the NT, when, as you acknowledge, Jews think much less about the NT than Christians do about the OT.

In other words, the pot calling the kettle black.

114

All laws prescribe morals. If we didn’t have a common understanding of what is moral and what is not, it would be impossible to live in a civilization together. Read Locke, et al. on the social contract.

“You just shot those people!”
“Yes, under my personal, they were evil and deserved it. Don’t you try to tell me what is moral.”

115

No, I can insults jewsish beliefs all I want and so can anyone else, but I assumed Sauron wasn’t trying to be insulting in post 99, but simply stating his views, so I was warning him that if he said it in real life, he might cause offense.

116

I understand that we need laws in a civilization. But we’re talking morals here. There was a time when it was immoral to have sex before marriage, to interracially marry, to have an abortion, to smoke dope, or to be gay. Needless to say, various churches still feel that it is up to them to prescribe these behaviors as immoral acts that will buy you a ticket to hell in a handbasket. The secular world, by and large, has acknowledged that these are personal decisions that have nothing to do with how good a person you are, but the church just can’t get beyond it. It’s not enough to be a good person. You have to make choices that will 1) make you an unhappy person, and 2) not make you a better person.

117

Just nitpicking, but at one time it was illegal to marry interracially. The miscegenation laws were based on morality at the time. Also, it’s still illegal to smoke dope. And while it’s not against the law to have sex before marriage, all states have statutory-rape laws and age-of-consent laws. (All those instances are U.S.-specific.)

118

In my not so humble opinion…. At second thought, I’ll see if anyone else wants to attack this concept first.

119

What? What’s to debate about this? At the time the anti-miscegenation laws in the U.S. were being put on the books, it was considered immoral (in the sense of “improper conduct of a sexual nature”) for a black person and a white person to engage in sex.

A quick search pulled up a multitude of cites, but here’s one taken at random:

"The anti-miscegenation laws were pushed ‘by a sense of morality, much like the ideas of the gay marriage (ban) today, homosexuality more generally,’ said Thomas M. Hilbink, assistant professor of legal studies at the University of Massachusetts. " Full article.

120

Actually, about 11 years ago, in Hawaii, of all places, a coworker said she believed “mixing with other races is against God.” (She was in Hawaii because her husband was stationed there with the military.) In her view, it was immoral to associate with people of other races and certainly, I assume, to marry them. When I was on my church’s Diocesan Commission on Racism in Pittsburgh, I heard similar things. If anything, I gather interracial marriage was even more contentious than homosexual marriage. I remember reading in USA Today that at one point 95% of the people surveyed were against interracial marriage, although no reason was given.

CJ