# At what point do we withdraw our consent to be governed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594 "2004-09-23T01:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chaparralv8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@chaparralv8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaparralv8)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/21 "2004-09-23T15:28:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **chap** , I cannot find the graph you speak of on the ABD website, and your link to [nma.org](http://nma.org) is the National Mining Association homepage. Do you have any better cites? Hmm. Let me find them again. This might take a while (I’m currently working) so be patient. I might not have time to find them until this evening. I guess the National Motorists Association has changed its web address in the two years since I’ve last been there. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/22 "2004-09-23T15:32:32Z")
> [@chaparralv8](#): > > Hmm. Let me find them again. This might take a while (I’m currently working) so be patient. I might not have time to find them until this evening. > > I guess the National Motorists Association has changed its web address in the two years since I’ve last been there. > **[National Motorists Association - Driver Advocacy](https://www.motorists.org/)** > > We look at important driving issues such as speed limits, speed cameras, red light cameras, speed traps and more. We also have a list of traffic attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/23 "2004-09-23T16:58:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I also think speed limit laws when the limit is set unnaturally low actually cause more fatalities because there is a greater differential of speeds. I think you’ve identified an important point here. Back in the day, there was a fifteen mph difference between minimum acceptable speed (40 mph) and the “max” (55 mph). Realistically, there was really a 25-30 mph difference. Now however, with the “max” at 70 you’ve got that 30 mph as a minimum and a realistic difference of 40-45 mph. That’s too much. I think the minimum speed should be Speed Limit - 15mph. > [@mrsmith537](#): > > Is that extra seven minutes worth the additional risk? Depends. What’s the additional risk? I can’t do a risk/benefit without a good idea of the cost. For a reasonable risk, sure it is. Why should I spend 7 extra minutes in the car because some people can’t drive responsibly? I need that time to warm up before I tee off. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/24 "2004-09-23T17:22:45Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In theory, the people are in control of what the laws are, through their elected representatives. If enough people were pissed off at the reduced speed limit, a grass roots lobbey would arise, and eventually get enough votes in the legislature to overturn the law. It’s called democracy. > > But democracy doesn’t mean that if enough people decide to break the law, that the law is void. On the largest scale, that was decided by the Civil War. Our system is set up on the presumption that people are supposed to get off their duffs and DO something within the legal framework, if they don’t like the status quo. Well stated. Airman Doors, USAF is partially right that the drivers have “voted with their right foot”. However, those votes go unoticed without a first class stamp attached to them. It’s the proverbial tree falling in the woods. How does a politician know about it unless someone alerts them by mail. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/25 "2004-09-23T18:02:54Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > The State of Delaware passed [SB38](http://www.theiacp.org/leg_policy/Legupdate/2001/Delaware.pdf) recently because a small town police force of four officers were collecting obscene amounts of revenue because they extended their town limits to include a two-mile stretch of US-113, and promptly dropped the limit to 35mph for those two miles. There was no hazard – except that caused by drivers braking suddenly to comply with the law – and the revenue was collected largely from residents of Dover and Rehoboth who never saw the benefits of their “tax” dollars. That stretch of road is surrounded by marshes and farmland, and you are far more likely to hit a deer or a chicken than a pedestrian. The general principle of collecting fine revenue to pay for roads and such is still valid. Setting up such traps to snare unwaring drivers, however, is unethical. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > Depends. What’s the additional risk? I can’t do a risk/benefit without a good idea of the cost. For a reasonable risk, sure it is. Why should I spend 7 extra minutes in the car because some people can’t drive responsibly? I need that time to warm up before I tee off. Hey too fucking bad. Leave 7 minutes earlier. First of all, driving 40 mph over the speed limit does not make you the responsible one. Second the point is that for moderate distances, the actual time you save by driving nearly twice as fast as the other cars is insignificant. Your point is valid about speed diferentials. However, even if everyone is going the same speed ±10 mph, I do not believe that the majority of drivers can or ever will be able to safely drive at professional race car speeds, baring some form of computerized control. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/26 "2004-09-23T18:38:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Hey too fucking bad. Leave 7 minutes earlier. First of all, driving 40 mph over the speed limit does not make you the responsible one. Second the point is that for moderate distances, the actual time you save by driving nearly twice as fast as the other cars is insignificant. Again, why should I have to give up my 7 minutes? Why not set the speed limit at 30? That will only take 40 minutes after all? Surely you can leave 20 minutes earlier. I was in a driving class (speeding ticket, natch) and the instructor offered the argument of “you’re not really saving any time”. My counter was the following: At the time I drove 180 miles home on Friday and 180 miles back to my work on Sunday. I traveled approximately 15 mph over the speed limit. I went 1 year between tickets during which I made approx. 40 round trips. I estimated the time cost of the ticket at 5 hrs (.25 to get it, .25 to arrange the class, a total of .5 to get there and back, 4 hours in the class). Over that year, I saved 43 hours by speeding. The actual cost of the ticket & class was $125. 125/43 = $2.91/hour. I make money by speeding and working the difference (even at minimum wage). Granted, I was driving more than normal, but even at 12K per year the time saved is 40 hours. > [@msmith537](#): > > Your point is valid about speed diferentials. However, even if everyone is going the same speed ±10 mph, I do not believe that the majority of drivers can or ever will be able to safely drive at professional race car speeds, baring some form of computerized control. But we’re not talking about professional race car speeds, are we? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/27 "2004-09-23T18:41:57Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > At what point do we withdraw our consent to be governed? According to the Founders: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, – **That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.** Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. **But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.** ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/28 "2004-09-23T19:03:11Z")
I kind of like the speed limits. Staties never pick on me in my crappy early-90s Honda. They go after people in flashy sports cars and expensive SUVs. Hell, I’ll pass the sporty coup going 85, but cops are drawn to the red paint and spoiler like flies to shit, while I sail on my merry way. ::snicker:: ---
**Author:** ![chaparralv8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@chaparralv8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaparralv8)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/29 "2004-09-23T20:27:57Z")
> [@chaparralv8](#): > > Hmm. Let me find them again. This might take a while (I’m currently working) so be patient. I might not have time to find them until this evening. > > I guess the National Motorists Association has changed its web address in the two years since I’ve last been there. Ok, here’s a SafeSpeed site that has a version of the graph… I’ll try to find a more scientific version of it. [http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedlimits.html](http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedlimits.html) ---
**Author:** ![chaparralv8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@chaparralv8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaparralv8)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/30 "2004-09-23T20:43:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The general principle of collecting fine revenue to pay for roads and such is still valid. Setting up such traps to snare unwaring drivers, however, is unethical. > Hey too fucking bad. Leave 7 minutes earlier. First of all, driving 40 mph over the speed limit does not make you the responsible one. Second the point is that for moderate distances, the actual time you save by driving nearly twice as fast as the other cars is insignificant. > > Your point is valid about speed diferentials. However, even if everyone is going the same speed ±10 mph, I do not believe that the majority of drivers can or ever will be able to safely drive at professional race car speeds, baring some form of computerized control. 120 MPH is hardly “professional race car speed”. It is, among other things, the prevailing speed in the left and (sometimes) middle lanes on German, Italian, and French motorways. It is also a cruise speed appropriate for only a few conditions. These conditions include (but aren’t limited to) dry highways, on days without fog, outside of major urban areas, in a car that is competent at these speeds, with a skilled, experienced driver paying absolutely total attention to the road and his driving. A skilled driver is one who adjusts his driving to the circumstances : a stretch of road that was perfectly fine for 97 miles per hour at dawn might not even be safe at 29 two hours later in the pouring rain during rush-hour. Speed limits take away a lot of the driver’s discretion by encouraging uniformity and a “pack mentality”. I’ve seen the sheer insanity of a pack of cars proceeding at 55 MPH on an Interstate on the way to a football game. The cars were nearly touching - and it was SNOWING. I’ve also had the pleasure of moving over to the right on that same road to let a Porsche 928S4 pass me - and I had the loud pedal all the way against the stop myself. With a very low speed limit, you get “left-lane campers” who forget that they should move to the right if they aren’t passing. You also get “enforcers” who drive at 3 MPH over the limit in the left lane figuring that they’re going quite fast enough and holding up everyone behind them. You also get road rage directed at the few drivers who sort through all the mess and make decent progress - the last time I drove on a highway, I was forced to use the hard-shoulder when a soccer-mom in an SUV drove straight into my lane cursing with rage. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/31 "2004-09-23T21:48:51Z")
I’ve driven in parts of the MidWest where most drivers obeyed the speed limits. It was a bit of a shock for me. I’m usually the slow driver in the right lane, driving close to the speed limit, while most of the other drivers are exceeding the speed limit by substantial amounts. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594/32 "2004-09-23T23:14:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe someone could post some cites to those surveys that show higher or non existant speed limits equal safer roads? Intuitively it does not make sense to me. At higher speeds you have less time to react, you have less ability to recover from a mistake, and any accident will be that much more catastrophic. These are indisputable laws of physics. So how does this translate into statistically safer roads? Though I don’t have the desire nor the bandwidth to provide your cites (I have done this in the past and there are plenty, far more then you claim if you just look), I wish to comment on your inquiry. It is the speed differencial that causes the hazard, not the speed. (since you mentioned laws of physics you should know there is no such thing as absolute speed, just relative speed). You must also consider human nature, humans will travel, if left alone, at a speed that they personally feel safe at - this is the natural speed of a road. Then you have some who will obey the speed limit - this sets up the differential of speed which is so deadly. I hope you start to see the issue here and the need, if we really care to limit accidents to have the speed limit set in such a way that mimimized the differencial of speeds. This includes enforcing a maximum speed and a minimum speed and making those speeds reasonable for that road. > [@](#): > > Hey too fucking bad. Leave 7 minutes earlier. First of all, driving 40 mph over the speed limit does not make you the responsible one. Second the point is that for moderate distances, the actual time you save by driving nearly twice as fast as the other cars is insignificant. 1st of all you don’t make any sense, 2nd higher speed limits will mean drivers will arive sooner and will not be so subject to drifting off to sleepy land behind the wheel. meanign a safer trip, 3nd of all the longer the trip the more time saved far exceedign your 7 minute example (which when multiplied by all the motorists subject to it would mean years or decades of non-productive time by people) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-do-we-withdraw-our-consent-to-be-governed/265594.md?page=1)