# At what point does 'anger management' become a farce in pyschology/criminology? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2017, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839 "2017-06-13T06:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/21 "2017-06-14T06:55:01Z")
Do you really have to pile on three at once? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/22 "2017-06-14T08:22:17Z")
We could make it four. 🙂 Good job. We just got distracted by the shiny OP. Thank you for doing our heavy lifting. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/23 "2017-06-14T09:18:34Z")
Kip Kinkel (not “Krinkel”) has schizophrenia, not an anger management problem. His sister does not have schizophrenia. ---
**Author:** ![femmejean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/0ea827/32.png) [@femmejean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/femmejean)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/24 "2017-06-14T11:37:07Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Kip Kinkel (not “Krinkel”) has schizophrenia, not an anger management problem. His sister does not have schizophrenia. Thing is there are plenty of schizophrenics who don’t go on mass shootings. In fact mentaly ill are [more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence.](http://www.wral.com/study-mentally-ill-more-likely-to-be-victims-than-perpetrators/13428666/) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/25 "2017-06-14T16:58:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > All too often? > I would say generally. Well, I mostly notice it only when my brilliant posts get ignored. Mostly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/26 "2017-06-14T17:13:50Z")
> [@femmejean](#): > > Thing is there are plenty of schizophrenics who don’t go on mass shootings. In fact mentaly ill are [more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violence.](http://www.wral.com/study-mentally-ill-more-likely-to-be-victims-than-perpetrators/13428666/) You’re talking forests and trees there. > [@](#): > > [Living with Schizophrenia](https://www.livingwithschizophreniauk.org/advice-sheets/schizophrenia-and-dangerous-behaviour/) > **Schizophrenia and violence** > > Prior to 1980 the accepted view amongst most professionals was that people with schizophrenia were no more likely to become violent than sane people. However in recent years there has been a strong body of evidence that suggests that this earlier view may have been mistaken and that people living with schizophrenia are responsible for more aggressive and violent acts than people who do not suffer from the condition.[sup]5[/sup] Whilst current research evidence points sharply in this direction (indeed some researchers suggest that it points conclusively in this direction[sup]14[/sup]) it still raises many unanswered questions as the various studies often use different methodologies. > > 1. Buchanan A, Fahy T, Walsh E, 2002, Violence and schizophrenia: examining the evidence, Published in the British Journal of Psychiatry. > > 2. [Hodgins S, 2008, Violent Behaviour Amongst people with schizophrenia: a Framework for Investigations of Causes, and Effective Treatment and Prevention.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2606714/) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/27 "2017-06-21T00:27:05Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > That doesn’t mean it’s not effective and useful; it means it’s not a cure-all 100% guarantee that “this Person will never ever act out in Anger again”. That’s not how humans work. That’s a bit of straw man argument. As far as I can see no one is saying anger management has to be a cure-all 100% guarantee or it is useless. It should however stand up to the same scrutiny as any other treatment, be it a therapy or a new antibiotic. Has anyone shown (statistically, using valid scientific methods) that anger management therapy makes people less likely to commit violent crimes than people who have not had the therapy. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/28 "2017-06-21T00:29:51Z")
> [@femmejean](#): > > Anger management and other types of therapy are ‘helpful’ but more often than not, they’ve seem to be fallacious when actually looking at why people become angry, etc. > > The main problem I’ve had with these therapies in general is that they usually fail to account for environmental differences and jump on the bandwagon that “you punched x,y,z because you couldn’t control your anger”. It’s something I also hear with mass murderers, “they didn’t learn proper anger management and decided to take it out on others”. Although I’m for personal responsibility, the main difficulty I have in accepting this idea also overlaps in criminology regarding whether people choose to commit crime in the way that society believes. > > I always think about the school shooter, [Kip Krinkel](http://murderpedia.org/male.K/k/kinkel-kipland.htm) and [his sister](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6bu7EljY8E). They obviously made vastly different life choices most likely to due to genetics and gender (men are more aggressive), yet the general consensus among a lot of people would be that “He just couldn’t control his anger like his sister”. Same story with Elliot Rodger and his sister. > > I don’t want it to exactly want to go down the route of gender differences in anger but more so discussing the environmental factors vs the innate factors along with the choice factor of the individual. The instances you mention are more closely associated with mental illness than simple anger problems. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/29 "2017-06-21T01:01:47Z")
A couple of addenda to add to the better answers above… things like “anger management training” have to be done CORRECTLY. Listing out example after example where court-ordered “therapy” failed, and declaring that this proves that it’s ineffective, is false reasoning. It isn’t valid data, unless you show that in each failed case, that all the steps were done well and thoroughly followed and tested. First hand example: one of my sons was caught DWI, and had to go through a number of court-ordered “therapies” to deal with his drinking. Several of the “courses” were offered by what you might call “professional court-pleasing” companies. That meant that they put all their REAL money and effort, into taking roll each time the class was held, and making sure each “pupil” nominally followed the steps in the program. My son ended up being of the opinion that the real purpose of the courses, wasn’t to help him, it was to make sure that he paid four times the official fines (since he had to pay for his “therapy”). Similarly, the court system and the laws have to be “done correctly.” Too often, the laws are passed in order to fulfill another legal or political concern, such as a requirement to do something other than sending everyone who messes up to prison, or letting them go and repeat their messes. The law establishing anger management as a sentence might have passed and been applauded, but if the budget in the next bill fails to find it properly, it will be another fake program, and wont help anyone. I fix machines for a living. Done it all my life. And I know VERY well, that if the fix-it guy skips steps, uses the wrong parts or cheaper ones than they should, the wrong lubrication, worn tools, and so on, the machine wont work when they are done. That doesn’t mean that “repairing things doesn’t work.” ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839/30 "2017-06-21T02:00:04Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Kip Kinkel (not “Krinkel”) has schizophrenia, not an anger management problem. His sister does not have schizophrenia. If he hadn’t killed his parents, they too would have been incarcerated, and probably still locked up, because they purchased all those guns for him. MHO, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-anger-management-become-a-farce-in-pyschology-criminology/788839.md?page=1)