# At what point does debate around Israel become antisemitism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2026, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102 "2026-09-16T05:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/141 "2026-09-17T14:04:31Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > There are about 195 nations on earth. Of those about 180 are either christian or Muslim. Theres only 15-20 nations on earth that aren’t christian or muslim (various nations in asia that either have hinduism/buddhism as their religion, or that never adopted religion). Theres really nowhere for the Jews to go. The vast majority of nations on earth are christian or muslim, and both religions have a long history of abusing the jews. It’s not all about religion though. Most Kurds are Muslim, but this has not stopped their Turkish and Syrian Muslim neighbors from slaughtering them whenever they get the chance. Likewise, the Muslim neighbors of the Palestinians in Jordan have kept them locked up in refugee camps for decades as a political bargaining chip; Lebanon did the same until kicking them out. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/142 "2026-09-17T14:27:26Z")
This is going to be repeating some points from a Pit thread, but I am hoping to get discussion on the subject less specific case and more broad - The ADL now defines any statement of “anti-Zionism” as antisemitic. You Babale have supported that position. I definitely do not. But some “anti-Zionism” gets into the range. I think. Honestly not so interested in your take here Babale but more for those who don’t agree that anti-Zionism is enough. The Columbia University coalition of student groups loosely affiliated into what they call the Columbia Union Apartheid Divest (CUAD) is good example here. They indeed have statements as officially of official group policy positions as possible that are pretty vile, including lauding Hamas leadership and the attack on October 7, and vilification of Zionists. Individuals of the group saying Zionists should die. With a fair amount of “Oh not ‘Jews!’ … just those who support Israel!” So vile. Yes. And without doubt members include no small number who are Jew haters lumping antisemitic tropes and conspiracies as “not antisemitic … just against Zionism and those who support it, which happens to be all Jews that won’t endorse our beliefs.” And some who really are vile in their beliefs, not caring that they are literally threatening a fair number of students for political beliefs and are reasonably understood as threatening Jews in general. But not Jew haters themselves. And some who just want to be part of an edgy group and feel revolutionary and will join whatever is the extreme cause of the moment. Is it correct to label the organization as antisemitic? I _think_ so. But open to argument. All members of the group as antisemites? I don’t think so. All who support the group as antisemites? No. Even if they are supporting a group that supports vile things. Many individuals of the group? Yes. Easy to say when you have past history of dressing up in traditional antisemitic caricature costume, or of making other Jewish conspiracy theory trope statements. But I do not think those three Ds are enough. Enough to side eye maybe, but not enough. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/143 "2026-09-17T14:33:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The ADL now defines any statement of “anti-Zionism” as antisemitic. So, they’ve defined anti-Zionist Jews as antisemites. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/144 "2026-09-17T14:36:41Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, they’ve defined anti-Zionist Jews as antisemites Is Ben Carson racist against black people? Or do you think that’s impossible too? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/145 "2026-09-17T14:39:29Z")
This is slicing things pretty thin. I applaud the intellectual exercise but question the practical utility. To put it in evolutionary terms, if you hear a rustle in the tall grass, is it better to assume it’s prey or predator? More to the point, let’s assume some proportion of a group chanting From the River to the Sea is largely doing performative virtue signaling. If a breakaway group becomes more aggressive, are you confident that the performative group will intervene to prevent violence, or are they more likely to do nothing? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/146 "2026-09-17T14:39:58Z")
Jews definitely can be antisemitic … “self hating” … but more precisely as saying things that are antisemitic, in intent or effect. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/147 "2026-09-17T14:40:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Is it correct to label the organization as antisemitic? > > I _think_ so. But open to argument. > > All members of the group as antisemites? I don’t think so. Do you think that all members of the KKK are racist? Or is that an unfair generalization? > [@DSeid](#): > > All who support the group as antisemites? No. Even if they are supporting a group that supports vile things. Can you support the KKK without being a member and without being racist? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/148 "2026-09-17T14:41:15Z")
Yahya Sinwar was a fucking terrorist, and if someone thinks he was cool, that essentially tells you all you need to know about them. So let us forget about him. Pivoting on the subject of terrorists, people like Menahem Begin were also terrorists, and he has fucking streets named after him in Israel, which perhaps makes it undiplomatic to criticize him and his ilk but that does not make it anti-semitic. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/149 "2026-09-17T14:41:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > More to the point, let’s assume some proportion of a group chanting From the River to the Sea is largely doing performative virtue signaling. If a breakaway group becomes more aggressive, are you confident that the performative group will intervene to prevent violence, or are they more likely to do nothing? Yep, exactly. Not to mention, didn’t we have a big societal shift in understanding where we became open to the idea that sometimes unintended actions may have a racist effect, even if we have no racist intent? Why is that getting dropped as soon as the topic is Jewish people? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/150 "2026-09-17T14:45:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > There are about 195 nations on earth. Of those about 180 are either christian or Muslim. You may need to re-count. > **[State religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion)** > > A state religion (also called official religion) is a religion or creed officially endorsed by a sovereign state. A state with an official religion (also known as a confessional state), while not a secular state, is not necessarily a theocracy. State religions are subject to advantageous treatment by official or government-sanctioned establishments of them, ranging from incentivising citizens to recognise and practice them through government endorsement to having public spending on the maintena... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/151 "2026-09-17T14:46:40Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Yahya Sinwar was a fucking terrorist, and if someone thinks he was cool, that essentially tells you all you need to know about them. So let us forget about him. > > Pivoting on the subject of terrorists, people like Menahem Begin were also terrorists, and he has fucking streets named after him in Israel, which perhaps makes it undiplomatic to criticize him and his ilk but that does not make it anti-semitic. Sorry, but there really is no comparison between Hamas and the Irgun. The worst thing the Irgun did was the King David Hotel bombing, which at the end of the day _did_ target a British command center, not civilians. Sinwar’s men went into Kibbutznik homes and a music festival and butchered civilians by hand. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/152 "2026-09-17T14:47:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Jews definitely can be antisemitic … “self hating” … but more precisely as saying things that are antisemitic, in intent or effect. No, [Satmar Hasidim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar) are not self hating Jews. They are Jews who oppose the existence of the state of Israel on religious grounds. “They hold that Jews are commanded by God to remain in exile until the arrival of the divine Messiah, and that creating a sovereign state through human political action defies divine will.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/153 "2026-09-17T14:49:28Z")
**Moderating** : On that post, @Wesley_Clark & @DPRK and anyone else, drop the state religion bit from this thread. It is barely connected anyway to the topic. This thread doesn’t need more drift. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/154 "2026-09-17T14:50:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The worst thing the Irgun did was the King David Hotel bombing Wow, what about people like David Raziel killing and maiming hundreds of civilians? But I was, emphatically, not trying to make any sort of comparison, just pointing out that all these people are legitimate and necessary targets of criticism without being anti-Semitic, or anti-Palestinian or whatever the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/155 "2026-09-17T14:50:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > No, [Satmar Hasidim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar) are not self hating Jews. No, but they certainly hold antisemitic positions towards secular Jews and even observant Jews who don’t follow the same exact sect as they do. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/156 "2026-09-17T14:52:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If a breakaway group becomes more aggressive, are you confident that the performative group will intervene to prevent violence, or are they more likely to do nothing? I have little confidence that any general public would intervene at any point when any mob becomes aggressive, which informs not at all on what the beliefs of those bystanders are. The slicing thin is to me the point of the exercise: yes easy to assume that every rustle in the grass is a predator, a wolf. But nevermind the boy who calls wolf story, sometimes a rustle is just a rustle and maybe reserve the burning the field down for threats more confidently assessed? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/157 "2026-09-17T14:56:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The slicing thin is to me the point of the exercise: yes easy to assume that every rustle in the grass is a predator, a wolf. But nevermind the boy who calls wolf story, sometimes a rustle is just a rustle and maybe reserve the burning the field down for threats more confidently assessed? But it’s not a question of rustles in the grass. These people are taking actions that cause real harm. Their rhetoric and celebration of violent terrorists like Sinwar directly leads to actions like this one. [Federal Hate Crime and First-Degree Murder Charges Filed Against Alleged Killer of Israeli Embassy Staff Members](https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/federal-hate-crime-and-first-degree-murder-charges-filed-against-alleged-killer-israeli) And this > **[Man who killed demonstrator in Colorado firebombing sentenced to life in prison](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-killed-demonstrator-colorado-firebombing-sentenced-life-prison-rcna344133)** > > Mohamed Sabry Soliman threw two Molotov cocktails at demonstrators who had gathered in a pedestrian mall in support of Israeli hostages in 2025. And this. > **[Michigan synagogue attack was 'hate, plain and simple,' says governor -...](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cq6q8dgvp8zt)** > > A suspect rammed a vehicle rammed into Temple Israel in an incident being investigated as a targeted attack on the Jewish community. You are telling me that we should carefully examine these people to determine if we think that they are _truly_ anti-semitic or if they’re just swept up in the fervor of virtue signaling and trying to one up their friends with how edgy and extreme and countercultural they are. But whatever their internal intentions, the net result is indistinguishable. So why should I even care? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/158 "2026-09-17T14:57:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I have little confidence that any general public would intervene at any point when any mob becomes aggressive, which informs not at all on what the beliefs of those bystanders are. All the more reason to be cautious of large numbers of people gathering and chanting anti-social slogans. Be it “From the River to the Sea” or “Jews will not Replace Us”. It seems a short walk from the one to the other at this point. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/159 "2026-09-17T14:58:07Z")
**Moderating** : Watch the blind links, either describe the story or at least let the preview box display. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102/162 "2026-09-17T15:03:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Be it “From the River to the Sea” or “Jews will not Replace Us”. It seems a short walk from the one to the other at this point. They should have just said “Zionists will not replace us”! [![](https://media1.tenor.com/m/b33trNTjXjsAAAAd/lil-yachty-drake.gif) ](https://media1.tenor.com/m/b33trNTjXjsAAAAd/lil-yachty-drake.gif) > [@What\_Exit](#): > > Watch the blind links, either describe the story or at least let the preview box display Sorry, they’re just links to news sites - I was about to describe each one in this reply but I see you broke the links out already so that’s fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-debate-around-israel-become-antisemitism/1033102.md?page=9)