# At what point does someone have a right to reside in a country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255 "2018-01-09T18:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/1 "2018-01-09T18:22:48Z")
There can be little doubt that citizens and people with visas, green cards, etc. have a legal right to reside in a country. But when it comes to illegal immigration, at which point has the illegal immigrant crossed over from “don’t have a right to be here” to “DO have a right to be here?” (Not a thread about illegal immigration in general, only about this one thing in particular…) Most people on the political spectrum would probably say that someone who just crossed the border illegally at El Paso or disembarked from a ship illegally at Sicily doesn’t have the right to be in their new country - otherwise, everyone has a right to be anywhere as soon as they cross a border, and then borders might as well not exist. But if that migrant stays there for years, undercover, have they gradually established more and more of a basis for “right to reside?” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/2 "2018-01-09T18:28:36Z")
Never. It is a Nation-States privilege to decide who can and cannot reside within its borders. Otherwise, its not a Nation-State, its a jumped up province or municipality. Please note, the difference between law and policy here is stark. While law should leave complete discretion to the country, it as a matter of policy will often be better served by having at least a soft border, if not an open one. On balance that’s an advantage as it attracts talent and highly successful polities have typically been ones with inclusive tendencies. The Romans, the Arab Caliphate, the Ottomans Turks, the US etc. These two things should not be confused. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/3 "2018-01-09T19:22:41Z")
Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: [Check if you can become a British citizen - GOV.UK](https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen) At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/4 "2018-01-09T19:54:57Z")
That would depend on the country, wouldn’t it? Have a particular one in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/5 "2018-01-09T19:59:32Z")
Go through the legal steps to enter the country and become a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/6 "2018-01-09T20:48:20Z")
I agree with AK84. If you enter illegally, even 30 years later, you are still illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/7 "2018-01-09T20:49:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That would depend on the country, wouldn’t it? > Have a particular one in mind? I wanted to make it as general as possible - not just about, say, the USA, but rather, about someone’s right to reside in any or all of the 190+ other countries without legal authorization. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/8 "2018-01-09T20:51:37Z")
Whenever they move there, presuming they are not fleeing felons (exceptions made for political refugees), foreign spies or an invading/occupying force. In other words, the exact same point that a citizen of California has the right to reside in Illinois. It shouldn’t be illegal to move. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/9 "2018-01-09T20:52:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I wanted to make it as general as possible - not just about, say, the USA, but rather, about someone’s right to reside in any or all of the 190+ other countries without legal authorization. I’d be surprised if they all had the same requirements. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/10 "2018-01-09T21:29:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d be surprised if they all had the same requirements. Certainly not, but as I understand the OP, this is about the concept of human rights. No criminal record ([being in a country illegally is a civil offense, not a crime)](http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/florida-conference-catholic-bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/). Gainfully employed. Ties to the community, including school-age children or volunteer work. Possibly not participating in “chain migration.” After ten years or so, you’re good to stay. It might be legally cumbersome, but I’m OK with giving a green card but not allowing naturalization. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/11 "2018-01-09T21:32:45Z")
It really is a matter of property rights. Individuals have a right to person and property. If an “immigrant” is located on property where the owner has no qualms with his presence, the government should have no right to “deport” him any more than warlords have a right to kidnap him. “Publicly” owned land is not owned legitimately. The legitimate owners of this property should be decided on a case-by-case basis, and then the rightful owners can decide who can exist on the land. I suspect the vast majority of “illegal” immigrants reside, work, and otherwise exist on land legitimately. The illegal immigrant has no right to exercise government privileges such as voting, welfare benefits, etc. Similarly, legal immigrants and lifetime residents have no such right to these privileges, but politically it is more difficult to revoke these privileges from non-illegals. This is a very minor issue for me. I don’t think immigrants move to the US to vote Democratic and collect welfare, but I’m sure some try to get some of the benefits like good Americans. A hardcore libertarian policy position would be to increase illegal immigration and hopelfully with that, tax evasion. A second-best solution would be a variation on various guest worker schemes. The length of time a person spends within the bounds of government jurisdiction is irrelevant to the matter of rights. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/12 "2018-01-09T21:34:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > “Publicly” owned land is not owned legitimately. Nonsense. That’s as silly as saying that a corporation cannot own property. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/13 "2018-01-09T21:36:04Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I agree with AK84. If you enter illegally, even 30 years later, you are still illegal. You meant to say “you are still residing illegally”? A person can not be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/14 "2018-01-09T21:43:24Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > You meant to say “you are still residing illegally”? A person can not be illegal. I was just going to say this-Can a person also be “robbery”, “kidnapping” or “assault”? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/15 "2018-01-09T21:48:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: [Check if you can become a British citizen - GOV.UK](https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen) > > At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty. Um…your cite says: not broken any immigration laws while in the UK If they entered illegally, surely they broke UK immigration laws, no? ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/16 "2018-01-09T21:59:10Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: [Check if you can become a British citizen - GOV.UK](https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen) > > At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty. In the early 2000s Nigerians were recruited to work in low paid jobs in Britain (as staff of care homes, sheltered housing schemes, etc.). After 5 years they could become British Citizens and were free to take any job they wished. A Metropolitan Police internet page claimed that this scheme was being used by Nigerian criminals to settle in Britain. ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/17 "2018-01-09T22:09:28Z")
[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011999/Deported-Nigerian-man-131-aliases-crept-Britain-carry-1m-fraud.html&ved=2ahUKEwiPmuHj8cvYAhWPCuwKHUIpDh4QFjAAegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw3ZNWVThYRfvy\_LtZ1E8luw](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011999/Deported-Nigerian-man-131-aliases-crept-Britain-carry-1m-fraud.html&ved=2ahUKEwiPmuHj8cvYAhWPCuwKHUIpDh4QFjAAegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw3ZNWVThYRfvy_LtZ1E8luw) I knew this guy … he’s an extraordinarily intelligent man. He was prosecuted under the name David Peters … which is my name! ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/18 "2018-01-09T22:29:54Z")
> **[James Ibori](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ibori)** > > James Onanefe Ibori (born 4 August 1959) is a Nigerian politician who was Governor of Delta State in Nigeria from 29 May 1999 to 29 May 2007. An ethnic Urhobo by descent, Ibori is a member of the People's Democratic Party (PDP). He is a leader in the Niger Delta region and a national figure in Nigeria. In 2012, Ibori was sentenced to 13 years in prison for money laundering. > Born to the family of late Chief Ukavbe Ibori and Mrs. Comfort Oji Ibori of Otefe in Oghara clan, Ethiope West Local Gove... This guy’s wife visited the Sheltered Housing Scheme I lived in in London and spoke to the Nigerian staff there … after her visit they became extremely dominant towards me and some other residents. Ibori had a house nearby. What was going on I don’t know … but I’m sure it wasn’t legal. I eventually abandoned my flat and most of my possessions and moved out if London ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/19 "2018-01-09T22:43:09Z")
To answer the OP: > [@](#): > > But when it comes to illegal immigration, at which point has the illegal immigrant crossed over from “don’t have a right to be here” to “DO have a right to be here?” At the point where they go through official channels and either get a work visa or apply for and are granted citizenship. Until then it doesn’t matter if they are here 5 minutes or 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/20 "2018-01-09T22:47:22Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Go through the legal steps to enter the country and become a citizen. One need not be a citizen of a country to legally reside there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255.md?page=2)