# At what point does someone have a right to reside in a country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255 "2018-01-09T18:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/81 "2018-01-11T00:02:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IANAL but I find this argument questionable. This is akin to saying that if a squatter breaks into someone’s house and secretly stays in their basement, that he is not committing a crime by staying in their house; the crime was committed when he picked the door locks and entered the house. Or maybe that is in fact legally true, but it seems like a strange argument. The two are inapposite. Staying in the house is a continued criminal act (trespass); staying in the country is not (since we have not yet criminalized “trespassing” by people in the country without permission. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/82 "2018-01-11T00:05:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You should notify the Supreme Court of that. They seem to be unaware of it. Did you miss my post above? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/83 "2018-01-11T01:33:19Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > How are they living in secret? They’re not in caves communicating by code. . . > I personally know may who are living just as open as you are; they have valid driver’s licenses, their children attend public schools, they work jobs that pay by check and withhold taxes, they own homes or rent apts that they keep up, they frequent local businesses. Some of them even crossed the border “legally,” they just never applied for resident alien status, or did and continued to stay after the visa expired. > > However you came to be somewhere, if you’ve been there long enough and have functioned as a resident, then you are a resident. > > mc Not legally you are not. Your presence is illegal. They are living in secret, the “owners” (the government in this case) do not have a reasonable opportunity to confront them and object to their presence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/84 "2018-01-11T01:35:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So when the voters decide to strip Jews of their citizenship and expel them from the country, that’s fine with you because the voters decided? > > In America we have a long list of things the voters and their elected representatives aren’t allowed to do, you might have learned about this in school. One thing they CAN do is decide who can immigrate, who gets extended the franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/85 "2018-01-11T01:40:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You should notify the Supreme Court of that. They seem to be unaware of it. Its not a crime but it is illegal in the same way that double parking is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/86 "2018-01-11T01:43:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > One thing they CAN do is decide who can immigrate, who gets extended the franchise. Yes, they can. That’s why we are having this thread. The thread is not about whether the government has this power, but how they should exercise it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/87 "2018-01-11T01:45:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > My problem with debates like this is that there are just too many aspects to the discussion to have it neatly encapsulated in an opinion. > > Does a nation have a legitimate interest in regulating immigration and enforcing immigration laws? Without question, and I agree that it’s not inherently racist to advocate for secure borders. > > But the history of immigration in the U.S. makes it clear that immigration has not been colorblind, so a person can be forgiven for suspecting racism when someone has an unhealthy obsession over immigration or ‘illegals’. Illegal immigrants weren’t responsible for our country’s disastrous decision to invade Iraq; in fact, some of them have actually fought in the War on Terror. Illegal immigrants weren’t responsible for the financial crisis of 2008. There are valid concerns over illegal immigration, but a lot of this is just scapegoating. Illegal immigration is not being blamed the war in Iraq or the financial crisis. They are being blamed for driving down wages of uneducated unskilled workers (AKA Trump voters). It is pretty clear that they do this at least to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/88 "2018-01-11T01:58:40Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yes, they can. That’s why we are having this thread. The thread is not about whether the government has this power, but how they should exercise it. Yes and I thought that adaher was saying that the government should exercise this power the way the voters want them to. But apparently someone thought that adaher was saying that he thinks that we can kick out the Jews. So I was reminding that person that we are talking about illegal immigration and the rules regarding immigration are set by the government and they should be set in a way that is consistent with the will of the voters. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/89 "2018-01-11T02:29:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes and I thought that adaher was saying that the government should exercise this power the way the voters want them to. But apparently someone thought that adaher was saying that he thinks that we can kick out the Jews. So I was reminding that person that we are talking about illegal immigration and the rules regarding immigration are set by the government and they should be set in a way that is consistent with the will of the voters. Which raised the obvious question; if kicking out the Jews were popular with voters, should the government set the immigration rules to produce this outcome? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/90 "2018-01-11T02:45:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Because that fucker doesn’t undersand honoring a deal. Why should a President be required to honor a deal made by a previous Administration? For example, if President Trump makes a deal with Russia, is President Warren required to honor it? > [@](#): > > And frankly, anyone who was brought here as a child or infant has a right to stay in the only country and culture they know. Cite that such a right exists, please. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/91 "2018-01-11T02:50:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Illegal immigration is not being blamed the war in Iraq or the financial crisis. They are being blamed for driving down wages of uneducated unskilled workers (AKA Trump voters). It is pretty clear that they do this at least to some extent. It’s not so clear. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/92 "2018-01-11T03:22:48Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Define “workplace raids” . Seriously. Because if you are talking about rounding up illegal immigrants at their workplaces, that’s not making those who provide the jobs responsible. They will just hire a new bunch and consider any fines the cost of doing business. This [Michigan dairy farmer gets prison time for hiring undocumented immigrants - mlive.com](http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2018/01/michigan_dairy_farmer_gets_pri.html) is making those who provide the jobs responsible. But it rarely happens, certainly not often enough to serve as a deterrent. How about I-9 inspections like the ones done on 7 11s all over the country today? They did get some illegal workers in the process but the focus was on fining and/or arresting the franchise owners for violations of regulatory compliance. Well, and of course during any I-9 inspection you have to suspend or fire all your non-compliant workers. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/93 "2018-01-11T03:28:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So when the voters decide to strip Jews of their citizenship and expel them from the country, that’s fine with you because the voters decided? > > In America we have a long list of things the voters and their elected representatives aren’t allowed to do, you might have learned about this in school. That’s the beauty of our Constitution. It already provides for robust citizenship rights: if you’re born here, you’re an American citizen. If you have an American parent, you’re an American citizen. Most countries do not enshrine that in their supreme law. We did. Now of course anything beyond that, we can decide who comes and who doesn’t, although other Constitutional concepts like due process and equality can come into play. But as long as we obey due process and don’t discriminate too much(some discrimination in immigration policy is allowed, although it’s not clear how much), we can ban all immigration if we want. Most rich countries don’t even allow low skill immigration at all. They allow high skill immigration and they allow refugees. That’s pretty much it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/94 "2018-01-11T03:29:25Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Hint: a deportation is not a criminal prosecution. There may be standards of evidence used, there may be a judge involved, there may be legal challenges to the deportation. > > That doesn’t mean the deportee is being charged with a crime. That’s a choice we make though, it’s not in the Constitution. And it’s a good choice. First time entry should not be a crime. Second time is though, and that’s also as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/95 "2018-01-11T03:29:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why should a President be required to honor a deal made by a previous Administration? > > For example, if President Trump makes a deal with Russia, is President Warren required to honor it? Yes, she is. Russia doesn’t make a deal with President Trump; Russia makes a deal with the United States of America. Constitutionally, President Trump is the agent who acts on behalf of the United States in negotiating and concluding the deal, but it remains a deal with the US, not a deal with Donald J. Trump. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/96 "2018-01-11T03:42:04Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s not so clear. Actually its both. While immigration (both legal and illegal) is a net benefit to the economy, even to the point of driving up certain wage groups, according to [The Center for Immigration Studies](https://cis.org/Report/Immigration-and-American-Worker)(among others): > [@](#): > > Some groups of workers face a great deal of competition from immigrants. These workers are primarily, but by no means exclusively, at the bottom end of the skill distribution, doing low-wage jobs that require modest levels of education. Such workers make up a significant share of the nation’s working poor. > . . . > > Illegal immigration reduces the wage of native workers . . mc ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/97 "2018-01-11T03:55:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > How about I-9 inspections like the ones done on 7 11s all over the country today? They did get some illegal workers in the process but the focus was on fining and/or arresting the franchise owners for violations of regulatory compliance. > > Well, and of course during any I-9 inspection you have to suspend or fire all your non-compliant workers. Let’s see what happens to the owners- this was apparently related to a 2013 investigation where 8 franchisees and managers pled guilty, apparently to charges regarding using stolen identities so they could employ illegal workers and pay them less than minimum wage. As far as I can tell, the only punishment was that they had to pay back wages. Not much of a deterrent, more a cost of doing business. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/98 "2018-01-11T04:57:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I love how the only context in which you can infer that a country is a really shitty place is when you’re threatening to send people back to it. > > Anyway, the reality is that Mexico is a middle income country with low unemployment. It is not a hellhole, although as with our own country there are certainly places you wouldn’t want to live within Mexico. I am Mexican, born and lived my whole life in Guadalajara. And you didn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/99 "2018-01-11T05:16:40Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Let’s see what happens to the owners- this was apparently related to a 2013 investigation where 8 franchisees and managers pled guilty, apparently to charges regarding using stolen identities so they could employ illegal workers and pay them less than minimum wage. As far as I can tell, the only punishment was that they had to pay back wages. Not much of a deterrent, more a cost of doing business. Well, the penalties are supposed to be $10,000 per violation. And they can keep on coming back and fine that same $10,000 per employee every time employee files aren’t compliant. Employers can be hit hard financially, the tools are there. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/100 "2018-01-11T11:31:42Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Actually its both. While immigration (both legal and illegal) is a net benefit to the economy, even to the point of driving up certain wage groups, according to [The Center for Immigration Studies](https://cis.org/Report/Immigration-and-American-Worker)(among others): > > mc First of all, the Center for Immigration Studies is NOT a neutral source, though surprisingly, despite your source, I don’t think your claims are particularly biased in this case. What I would submit, however, is that automation and the overall restructuring of the labor force over the past decades (including the shift to global supply chains) has had much more to do with declining wages than immigration. Immigration usually follows a demand for labor that is not being filled by the existing labor pool within the country. When the demand for labor dries up, then you see competition for labor, but the natural born citizens have the advantages that immigrants (legal or otherwise) don’t. I agree with the criticism that it’s over-simplification to claim that immigrants always take the jobs that citizens don’t want - that’s not always true, I agree. But more often than not, the fill labor shortages that are caused by a multitude of factors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255.md?page=6)